Supporting the Lightning Network with Henrik Skogstrøm

1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:03,830 basically if you're any type of company that touches the Lightning Network 2 00:00:03,830 --> 00:00:08,787 directly through a node, then you need to be able to manage that node and 3 00:00:08,787 --> 00:00:10,767 you need to have systems around it. 4 00:00:10,817 --> 00:00:14,486 So that can be anything from seeing which channels you have, how many 5 00:00:14,486 --> 00:00:17,650 payments have gone out or in, you yeah, opening and closing channels, 6 00:00:17,740 --> 00:00:20,370 it can be even just account systems. 7 00:00:20,410 --> 00:00:23,760 So if you have customers that have different balances that you hold for 8 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:24,570 them, you need to keep track of that. 9 00:00:24,590 --> 00:00:25,787 Um, and. 10 00:00:26,052 --> 00:00:28,602 Torque helps you do a lot of these things. 11 00:00:28,804 --> 00:00:30,354 Welcome back to the Freedom Footprint Show. 12 00:00:30,959 --> 00:00:35,049 The Bitcoin Philosophy Show with Knut Svanholm and me, Luke the Pseudo Finn. 13 00:00:35,939 --> 00:00:40,969 Today we're joined by Henrik Skogström, founder of TORQ, formerly LN Capital, 14 00:00:41,039 --> 00:00:42,429 to talk about the Lightning Network. 15 00:00:43,339 --> 00:00:47,129 We learn a lot about how Lightning works, the things Lightning companies need to do 16 00:00:47,129 --> 00:00:51,219 to keep the experience seamless for users, and how TORQ can help with all that. 17 00:00:52,199 --> 00:00:54,929 But before we jump in, I'll quickly cover how you can support the show. 18 00:00:55,454 --> 00:00:58,494 First, you can send us a boost or stream us some sats using a value for 19 00:00:58,494 --> 00:01:00,304 value podcasting app such as Fountain. 20 00:01:00,904 --> 00:01:03,574 If you're listening to this show as a podcast, check it out on Fountain. 21 00:01:03,584 --> 00:01:06,344 You can earn sats from listening and you can support us in all 22 00:01:06,344 --> 00:01:07,324 your other favorite shows. 23 00:01:08,174 --> 00:01:11,334 You can also support us on Geiser with Bitcoin or on Patreon if you 24 00:01:11,334 --> 00:01:12,564 want to get rid of your dirty fiat. 25 00:01:13,079 --> 00:01:14,459 All our links are in the description. 26 00:01:15,949 --> 00:01:20,499 And finally, we want to thank today's sponsors, Amber App, Wasabi Wallet, Orange 27 00:01:20,499 --> 00:01:23,099 Pill App, The Bitcoin Way, and Geyser. 28 00:01:23,289 --> 00:01:24,939 All their information is in the description. 29 00:01:25,109 --> 00:01:26,599 We'll be talking a bit more about them later. 30 00:01:27,649 --> 00:01:31,909 And now, without further ado, here is Henrik Skogström on 31 00:01:32,109 --> 00:01:33,349 the Freedom Footprint show. 32 00:01:33,666 --> 00:01:35,426 Henrik, welcome to the Freedom Footprint show. 33 00:01:35,466 --> 00:01:36,216 Thanks for joining us. 34 00:01:37,026 --> 00:01:37,926 Thank you for having me. 35 00:01:38,391 --> 00:01:38,571 Yeah. 36 00:01:38,571 --> 00:01:39,441 Welcome Hendrik. 37 00:01:39,603 --> 00:01:44,283 I can give a TLDR on, on how we got connected because this is, this is 38 00:01:44,283 --> 00:01:50,013 sort of a in real life connection story via orange pill app, a shout out 39 00:01:52,119 --> 00:01:56,899 so, so, uh, yeah, we, we met at a, uh, we didn't meet, but. 40 00:01:56,929 --> 00:02:02,298 I met somebody who works with your, your company Torque, in a, in a 41 00:02:02,318 --> 00:02:06,179 live event, uh, orange pill app event, uh, in Tampere, Finland. 42 00:02:06,199 --> 00:02:12,374 And, uh, we were at a sauna, party and, uh, And then, uh, yeah, we found out 43 00:02:12,374 --> 00:02:17,684 that there's a connection between, uh, yourself and, uh, and Finland and, uh, 44 00:02:17,744 --> 00:02:22,634 got to talking that it would be, uh, nice to get you on our show and, uh, hear 45 00:02:22,634 --> 00:02:25,734 about everything you're doing with the Lightning Network because we, we have 46 00:02:25,744 --> 00:02:29,814 not had anyone who is a Lightning expert. 47 00:02:30,374 --> 00:02:32,854 In any real respect, come onto the show and talk to us. 48 00:02:32,874 --> 00:02:39,004 So yeah, welcome Henrik, and let's maybe start off with an introduction 49 00:02:39,834 --> 00:02:43,724 to yourself and the work that you do. 50 00:02:44,172 --> 00:02:44,722 Yeah, great. 51 00:02:44,752 --> 00:02:46,232 Uh, again, thanks for having me. 52 00:02:46,242 --> 00:02:50,232 And, uh, yeah, cool connection, uh, through, uh, Yoho there. 53 00:02:50,802 --> 00:02:55,722 Um, yeah, so introduction, uh, of me, I've, I've been working in the 54 00:02:55,722 --> 00:02:58,242 lighting industry since, uh, 2019. 55 00:02:58,412 --> 00:03:05,957 Um, maybe start with, my name is Henrik Skogström, uh, and, uh, we, um, Yeah, 56 00:03:05,977 --> 00:03:10,427 we, at Torque, we're building sort of this, um, management, lightning 57 00:03:10,427 --> 00:03:12,657 management platform for enterprises. 58 00:03:13,347 --> 00:03:17,667 Uh, so we've been really deep into how lightning works and different 59 00:03:17,747 --> 00:03:20,207 implementations for almost two years now. 60 00:03:20,867 --> 00:03:23,397 Uh, and it's been a ton of fun. 61 00:03:23,787 --> 00:03:27,227 So, um, hopefully we can dive into something, uh, some of 62 00:03:27,227 --> 00:03:28,257 the evolution there as well. 63 00:03:28,755 --> 00:03:34,545 yeah, I've been using the Lightning Network since 2019 and I'm just baffled 64 00:03:34,550 --> 00:03:39,145 by how people are so ignorant about it and don't know about it and how awesome it is. 65 00:03:39,825 --> 00:03:43,965 Uh, so, so, but, but as, as I understand it, like most people use 66 00:03:43,965 --> 00:03:45,735 custodial lightning, uh, lightning. 67 00:03:46,390 --> 00:03:51,030 And I'm guilty as charged most of the time myself, uh, because I usually 68 00:03:51,030 --> 00:03:54,750 just use a custodial service and then put it into cold storage later. 69 00:03:55,950 --> 00:03:59,870 Could you give us an explanation of that and how, how the network, what 70 00:03:59,870 --> 00:04:04,640 the network looks like at this point, like how, uh, non custodial is it 71 00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:06,890 and, uh, what are the trade offs? 72 00:04:07,804 --> 00:04:08,314 Yeah, sure. 73 00:04:08,314 --> 00:04:14,243 So, I think it's important to remember when you need true self custody 74 00:04:14,363 --> 00:04:16,573 custody and in what scenarios. 75 00:04:16,683 --> 00:04:21,753 The dream world is that everybody has 100 percent control of absolutely 76 00:04:21,773 --> 00:04:24,033 all their money at all times, right? 77 00:04:24,603 --> 00:04:30,223 Um, but at the same time, if you have a wallet with a hundred dollars in it. 78 00:04:30,878 --> 00:04:34,148 It's not the end of the world if somebody rugs that one. 79 00:04:34,638 --> 00:04:38,908 It's of course bad to have sort of a situation where either a company can rug 80 00:04:38,908 --> 00:04:45,178 you or some hacker can get access to it, but There is this balance to, to reach. 81 00:04:45,188 --> 00:04:52,337 So what we're seeing currently is that there are major providers that are like 82 00:04:52,347 --> 00:04:57,077 Vault of Satoshi and, and these that are custodial that a lot of people are using. 83 00:04:57,707 --> 00:05:03,727 Um, But we're also seeing an increase in, um, self custodial 84 00:05:03,727 --> 00:05:06,347 wallets like Breeze, for example. 85 00:05:06,467 --> 00:05:14,627 Um, and in these cases, they're very often paired with, um, large LSP nodes. 86 00:05:15,587 --> 00:05:21,067 And both of these types of companies and wallets have the effect of... 87 00:05:21,362 --> 00:05:27,002 Gathering up a lot of liquidity in certain nodes, um, and that is 88 00:05:27,022 --> 00:05:29,862 by some seen as centralization. 89 00:05:30,162 --> 00:05:34,152 Um, the reality is more that it's centralization of capacity 90 00:05:34,152 --> 00:05:38,972 or capital to some places, and it's quite natural because if you 91 00:05:38,972 --> 00:05:44,252 have, if you're an individual, you don't need 20, 000 on your node. 92 00:05:44,572 --> 00:05:49,562 Um, but a business or an LSP or wall provider definitely needs more than that. 93 00:05:50,762 --> 00:05:52,632 So that is sort of some of the effect we're seeing. 94 00:05:52,642 --> 00:05:52,652 I 95 00:05:53,508 --> 00:05:53,938 Okay. 96 00:05:53,938 --> 00:05:59,128 So, uh, um, so can you give us a, uh, for, for those of our listeners 97 00:05:59,128 --> 00:06:02,818 who don't know how lightning works, because it's kind of complicated. 98 00:06:02,818 --> 00:06:08,158 Is there a, a quick way of explaining what the lightning network is and how it works? 99 00:06:08,812 --> 00:06:13,402 Yeah, um, so the Lightning Network is a scaling solution for Bitcoin. 100 00:06:14,442 --> 00:06:20,232 So what it, the way it scales Bitcoin is that you do one Bitcoin transaction 101 00:06:20,282 --> 00:06:21,792 to open what we call a channel. 102 00:06:22,342 --> 00:06:25,992 And through that channel, you can send as many transactions as you want. 103 00:06:26,162 --> 00:06:30,252 Basically, what you're doing is just asking the other party and yourself 104 00:06:30,292 --> 00:06:32,772 to update a contract between yourself. 105 00:06:33,426 --> 00:06:38,516 about how much Bitcoin each side has and that contract is basically just a 106 00:06:38,526 --> 00:06:40,976 potential normal Bitcoin transaction. 107 00:06:41,846 --> 00:06:47,376 Um, and since this doesn't have to be broadcast to the world, you can do that as 108 00:06:47,376 --> 00:06:49,506 many times you want, as fast as you want. 109 00:06:50,036 --> 00:06:52,516 Um, and of course don't impact everybody else. 110 00:06:52,876 --> 00:06:53,376 Bitcoin 111 00:06:56,436 --> 00:06:56,836 transactions. 112 00:06:57,526 --> 00:07:02,036 Um, the second effect there is that You can have a challenge with multiple 113 00:07:02,036 --> 00:07:06,936 parties and I can ask somebody, I can send money to somebody I'm not 114 00:07:06,946 --> 00:07:11,406 directly connected to because I can ask different hops or different node 115 00:07:11,406 --> 00:07:15,966 operators that I have a challenge with to relay a transaction through them. 116 00:07:16,546 --> 00:07:20,206 And this, of course, is always done without any form of trust 117 00:07:20,206 --> 00:07:21,756 involved in that transaction. 118 00:07:22,416 --> 00:07:26,486 Uh, so that might not have been as, uh, short and straightforward 119 00:07:26,646 --> 00:07:30,306 as it could be, but that's sort of a very short explanation of what 120 00:07:30,326 --> 00:07:31,556 Lightning is and how it works. 121 00:07:32,094 --> 00:07:33,264 Yeah, don't worry. 122 00:07:33,264 --> 00:07:36,254 I think most of our listeners have some understanding of this stuff. 123 00:07:36,254 --> 00:07:37,594 So, uh, the. 124 00:07:38,359 --> 00:07:44,449 The thing I'm curious about is like, uh, the regulations that are popping up in 125 00:07:44,459 --> 00:07:46,359 different jurisdictions around Bitcoin. 126 00:07:48,369 --> 00:07:54,349 Uh, could you make, like, a legal case for Lightning not being anything but 127 00:07:55,239 --> 00:08:02,299 mathematics, and thereby, like, since, since it doesn't ever have to touch 128 00:08:02,814 --> 00:08:07,114 The base chain, really, you could just call it messages between people. 129 00:08:07,204 --> 00:08:14,054 And maybe, do you know of any anyone that's trying to 130 00:08:14,054 --> 00:08:15,764 lobby a politician or like, 131 00:08:16,796 --> 00:08:20,166 some lawmaker around in these areas? 132 00:08:20,186 --> 00:08:24,636 Because like, to me, you know, money should be under free speech laws 133 00:08:24,686 --> 00:08:28,026 that should like, I do not care what you pay, but you will fight to 134 00:08:28,026 --> 00:08:29,256 the death for your right to pay it. 135 00:08:29,696 --> 00:08:35,556 Um, Because what bitcoins obviously has pointed out to everyone is that money 136 00:08:35,656 --> 00:08:38,236 really is nothing but information. 137 00:08:38,236 --> 00:08:44,206 And money ness is more of an adjective than a noun and all of this philosophical 138 00:08:44,206 --> 00:08:46,196 stuff that we touch on often in this show. 139 00:08:46,746 --> 00:08:49,316 Um, but lightning is a special case. 140 00:08:49,386 --> 00:08:53,246 I mean, you, you could make a good legal case for lightning 141 00:08:53,246 --> 00:08:56,766 transactions, not being transactions at all, but just messages, right? 142 00:08:57,470 --> 00:09:00,830 Yeah, it's a very interesting question, I guess. 143 00:09:00,890 --> 00:09:06,646 So, I talked to some lawyers about this recently, and I think, it 144 00:09:06,646 --> 00:09:12,216 depends on what each country thinks related to money transferring laws. 145 00:09:13,256 --> 00:09:16,866 But I very much agree with the philosophical thought of 146 00:09:16,866 --> 00:09:18,716 it being just communication. 147 00:09:18,806 --> 00:09:25,336 Um, Or language, because yeah, you, you move, like moving money is 148 00:09:25,346 --> 00:09:27,696 essentially saying I value this thing. 149 00:09:27,776 --> 00:09:34,196 Um, I'm no legal expert, but it's, it's something where the power of it is so big 150 00:09:34,216 --> 00:09:39,241 that it should be a fundamental right we have as humans to be able to transact. 151 00:09:39,482 --> 00:09:45,732 Yeah, given that we have such a high degree of, uh, like everything is digital 152 00:09:45,732 --> 00:09:51,222 around us, being able to pay online or digitally is becoming so important 153 00:09:51,232 --> 00:09:52,902 that it should be a basic human right. 154 00:09:53,342 --> 00:09:58,792 And, uh, yeah, lightning is a tool to, to make that possibility because 155 00:09:58,792 --> 00:10:05,222 right now finance is, or payments is a very permission, um, based 156 00:10:05,422 --> 00:10:10,937 system where certain parts of, um, The globe can't access that system. 157 00:10:10,957 --> 00:10:15,777 So yeah, philosophically, that's a really interesting topic. 158 00:10:17,294 --> 00:10:17,584 Henrik. 159 00:10:17,844 --> 00:10:23,184 Yeah, uh, to my knowledge, like, each lightning node does not know, uh, 160 00:10:23,194 --> 00:10:27,954 where the, it knows the, what node the transaction comes from and where it's 161 00:10:27,964 --> 00:10:31,724 going to, but it does not know how long the chain is, and it does not know 162 00:10:31,734 --> 00:10:36,514 how, uh, what the final destination is or where it came from originally. 163 00:10:37,084 --> 00:10:42,264 So, so, uh, How private is a Lightning transaction? 164 00:10:42,264 --> 00:10:47,294 Like, I mean, obviously it's less private if you're using a custodian, 165 00:10:47,294 --> 00:10:51,114 but how private is it if you're doing it properly, so to speak? 166 00:10:51,953 --> 00:10:57,283 So yeah, a custodian will see, of course, who you are, if they're doing KYC, and 167 00:10:57,283 --> 00:10:59,573 they will see who you're sending it to. 168 00:11:02,073 --> 00:11:08,798 If you're not Using a custodian, you're 100 percent generating invoices and 169 00:11:08,798 --> 00:11:10,768 paying invoices on your own device. 170 00:11:11,608 --> 00:11:15,148 That can be sort of something like Breeze or it can be a wallet. 171 00:11:15,688 --> 00:11:20,158 Then it is, um, then it is very private. 172 00:11:20,588 --> 00:11:25,108 The hops in between don't see, as you said, they don't see what the length 173 00:11:25,108 --> 00:11:26,888 are, where the payment is actually going. 174 00:11:26,918 --> 00:11:30,428 If you're the first hop or so the payment is coming from you or not. 175 00:11:31,293 --> 00:11:34,763 Um, and this again has some interesting effects on the legal 176 00:11:34,763 --> 00:11:40,823 systems, uh, for larger financial institutions and different, um, uh, 177 00:11:41,163 --> 00:11:43,283 payment providers, uh, out there. 178 00:11:43,873 --> 00:11:48,053 So, but other than that, other than sort of the routing, this 179 00:11:48,083 --> 00:11:50,073 is like paying with cash again. 180 00:11:50,223 --> 00:11:51,093 It is like you. 181 00:11:51,573 --> 00:11:54,623 You sort of pay with cash right through your mobile or, 182 00:11:55,043 --> 00:11:58,413 or, um, uh, computer screen. 183 00:11:59,073 --> 00:12:04,163 Uh, so in that sense, it's back to a very basic and known element that we have. 184 00:12:04,631 --> 00:12:08,871 All right, so, uh, Lightning is known as a layer two solution to Bitcoin 185 00:12:09,091 --> 00:12:14,751 because layer one is viewed as the, uh, the base chain is viewed as layer one. 186 00:12:15,161 --> 00:12:18,961 I would say that layer zero is the people involved or are the people 187 00:12:18,961 --> 00:12:24,611 involved, uh, that because there's no layer one without, without the people. 188 00:12:25,081 --> 00:12:30,991 So, uh, Is there, is there a layer three coming and what would that be in your, in 189 00:12:30,991 --> 00:12:36,301 your mind with like, what, what problem does it even solve when we already 190 00:12:36,301 --> 00:12:40,221 have lightning, like, is there a layer on top of this coming in the future? 191 00:12:40,221 --> 00:12:41,731 And what would that look like? 192 00:12:42,230 --> 00:12:47,450 I mean, it's, um, at definition, I don't know, like there's applications, 193 00:12:47,490 --> 00:12:48,910 of course, on top of Lightning. 194 00:12:48,910 --> 00:12:52,630 And then we have, uh, I guess layering is the sort of protocols 195 00:12:52,850 --> 00:12:54,120 doing something different. 196 00:12:54,150 --> 00:12:54,860 I mean, um. 197 00:12:55,270 --> 00:12:58,180 Separate assets and something like that could be considered a layer three 198 00:12:58,210 --> 00:13:04,160 where we use Lightning as the transport layer and then we use some other 199 00:13:04,160 --> 00:13:08,090 protocol to have some other meaning to those transactions on top of it. 200 00:13:08,530 --> 00:13:12,490 So that can be considered a layer three to add more functionality that 201 00:13:12,490 --> 00:13:14,400 isn't possible on Lightning itself. 202 00:13:15,060 --> 00:13:17,280 Um, scalability wise. 203 00:13:18,610 --> 00:13:23,110 I don't, yeah, it's, it's not something I think would be adding a third 204 00:13:23,110 --> 00:13:25,390 layer for scalability again, right? 205 00:13:25,850 --> 00:13:27,150 Lightning pretty much solves that. 206 00:13:27,548 --> 00:13:29,668 Okay, so what is, what is torque? 207 00:13:29,678 --> 00:13:32,048 Like, what do you do at torque? 208 00:13:32,068 --> 00:13:33,998 Well, what is the, what is torque? 209 00:13:35,008 --> 00:13:40,268 Yeah, so basically if you're any type of company that touches the Lightning 210 00:13:40,268 --> 00:13:45,778 Network directly through a node, then you need to be able to manage that node 211 00:13:45,778 --> 00:13:47,938 and you need to have systems around it. 212 00:13:47,988 --> 00:13:52,698 So that can be anything from seeing which channels you have, how many 213 00:13:52,698 --> 00:13:54,748 payments have gone out or in, you know. 214 00:13:54,878 --> 00:13:58,898 Um, um, yeah, opening and closing channels, it can be 215 00:13:59,178 --> 00:14:00,728 even just account systems. 216 00:14:00,768 --> 00:14:04,118 So if you have customers that have different balances that you hold for 217 00:14:04,118 --> 00:14:04,928 them, you need to keep track of that. 218 00:14:04,948 --> 00:14:10,568 Um, and all these sort of different aspects of interacting 219 00:14:10,568 --> 00:14:11,478 on the Lightning Network. 220 00:14:12,088 --> 00:14:12,468 and. 221 00:14:13,118 --> 00:14:15,668 Torque helps you do a lot of these things. 222 00:14:15,668 --> 00:14:18,528 I mean, constantly expanding and adding modules to Torque. 223 00:14:18,958 --> 00:14:22,658 But right now, the modules we have is that we help you collect 224 00:14:22,658 --> 00:14:26,188 data about all the traffic and everything going on with your node. 225 00:14:27,058 --> 00:14:31,098 We then help you open and close channels, for example, either 226 00:14:31,108 --> 00:14:32,798 manually or automatically. 227 00:14:33,718 --> 00:14:37,738 We'll let you see all that data, so you can interact and analyze 228 00:14:37,768 --> 00:14:38,738 everything that's going on. 229 00:14:39,498 --> 00:14:42,708 Um, we also have the ability to manage multiple nodes. 230 00:14:42,708 --> 00:14:47,088 And this is important because a lot of the enterprises around, uh, today, they have 231 00:14:47,088 --> 00:14:52,458 multiple nodes for redundancy reasons and for special, um, specializing the traffic. 232 00:14:53,298 --> 00:14:56,908 Um, so for example, you can have, uh, two nodes. 233 00:14:56,918 --> 00:15:00,858 One is mainly sending data or sending transactions out and one 234 00:15:00,858 --> 00:15:02,638 is mainly receiving payments. 235 00:15:03,138 --> 00:15:04,548 And then you have redundancies. 236 00:15:04,588 --> 00:15:06,868 You might have four because you have two of each. 237 00:15:07,868 --> 00:15:10,838 And this sort of increased the entire complexity of the operation, of course. 238 00:15:11,003 --> 00:15:16,913 so Because the complexity is increasing as you add more nodes and you have more 239 00:15:17,603 --> 00:15:22,643 channels, you have more transactions and things going on in your operation, 240 00:15:23,783 --> 00:15:28,213 this gets ever more complex and harder and harder to manage and build. 241 00:15:28,243 --> 00:15:35,053 So what we provide is a platform for operators to work off of so that they 242 00:15:35,053 --> 00:15:39,698 don't have to, um, Uh, build everything from scratch and they can rather build 243 00:15:39,698 --> 00:15:44,008 the systems and the end user experience that their user care about and not 244 00:15:44,038 --> 00:15:45,308 sort of know the management stuff. 245 00:15:45,870 --> 00:15:48,960 you got to remember that, for example, if you're a payment processor or your 246 00:15:48,970 --> 00:15:53,310 wallet, your customers don't care at all about how it works in the background. 247 00:15:53,750 --> 00:15:56,330 They just want a really cool user experience, they want an 248 00:15:56,340 --> 00:15:58,360 API, they want a smooth wallet. 249 00:15:59,170 --> 00:16:03,150 So, there's a limit to what you really want to spend an energy 250 00:16:03,150 --> 00:16:04,550 on building stuff yourself. 251 00:16:04,590 --> 00:16:11,070 So, what we do is we provide a set of modules that help these companies operate. 252 00:16:11,170 --> 00:16:15,220 For example, it allows you to collect data about everything that's happening. 253 00:16:15,735 --> 00:16:22,045 You can, uh, inspect channels, you can, uh, automate, uh, or 254 00:16:22,055 --> 00:16:23,855 manually open and close channels. 255 00:16:24,575 --> 00:16:28,945 Um, you can also manage multiple nodes, and this is especially when 256 00:16:28,945 --> 00:16:35,375 the, um, as the operation grows, you can see that you have, um, For 257 00:16:35,375 --> 00:16:39,615 example, um, two or four nodes. 258 00:16:40,035 --> 00:16:43,905 And the reason for this is that the traffic is so big that you want to 259 00:16:43,965 --> 00:16:49,065 specialize the node activity and you want to have redundancy in your operation. 260 00:16:50,705 --> 00:16:58,055 So in short, you can use Torque to simplify and use Torque instead of 261 00:16:58,065 --> 00:17:01,505 building your own tooling and simplify your organization in that way. 262 00:17:02,003 --> 00:17:02,503 All right. 263 00:17:03,073 --> 00:17:04,953 Luke, is there anything on your mind? 264 00:17:05,308 --> 00:17:05,888 Well, sure. 265 00:17:05,888 --> 00:17:06,238 Yeah. 266 00:17:06,298 --> 00:17:11,438 So, so I think, um, lightning from the perspective of, yeah. 267 00:17:11,963 --> 00:17:16,993 What it actually does for Bitcoin, I think this is a, this is a bit of a deep thing 268 00:17:17,003 --> 00:17:24,153 because, uh, we, we tend to try to avoid any mention of shitcoins here on the show, 269 00:17:24,153 --> 00:17:30,423 and I'm not going to mention any by name, but the general idea is that there is so 270 00:17:30,423 --> 00:17:34,843 called quote unquote blockchain technology that can beat Bitcoin in the future. 271 00:17:35,593 --> 00:17:39,723 Specifically the level of fast payments and that's kind of the idea here and 272 00:17:39,723 --> 00:17:44,533 so um, maybe something about um, what I'm trying to get at here is do you 273 00:17:44,533 --> 00:17:50,743 have any, any feelings on what is the real value of lightning to bitcoin? 274 00:17:52,143 --> 00:17:53,043 Is it working? 275 00:17:53,043 --> 00:17:59,253 Is it, is it actually helping bitcoin to do what everyone hopes it will do? 276 00:18:00,648 --> 00:18:01,588 Yeah, definitely. 277 00:18:01,588 --> 00:18:04,668 And I've done large payments on Lightning as well. 278 00:18:04,708 --> 00:18:10,428 And especially for something that we use payments for every day, um, 279 00:18:10,478 --> 00:18:15,358 up to a thousand dollars, there's everything, regardless of self 280 00:18:15,358 --> 00:18:16,968 hosted or not works really well. 281 00:18:17,508 --> 00:18:22,988 Um, the, the interesting thing there versus a lot of other coins where 282 00:18:22,988 --> 00:18:26,458 they're talking about transaction volume and speed and all that is that 283 00:18:27,918 --> 00:18:30,718 Lightning settles less than a second. 284 00:18:30,888 --> 00:18:31,378 And. 285 00:18:31,913 --> 00:18:34,173 The, the way it scales is, uh. 286 00:18:36,098 --> 00:18:38,068 is in a way that's super efficient. 287 00:18:38,618 --> 00:18:40,948 So when you look at a lot of other coins, what they're talking 288 00:18:40,948 --> 00:18:45,818 about is that they, um, they increase the number of transactions 289 00:18:45,818 --> 00:18:49,108 possible, um, by a few methods. 290 00:18:49,108 --> 00:18:54,188 One is just increasing the, the speed of the, the block creation, or they 291 00:18:54,188 --> 00:18:56,068 just, uh, increase the block size. 292 00:18:56,148 --> 00:19:00,098 And when you think about that, it It is a solution where they then just 293 00:19:00,258 --> 00:19:02,388 not talk about what happens over time. 294 00:19:02,848 --> 00:19:06,328 There's a lot of different, um, problems that arise from that. 295 00:19:06,348 --> 00:19:09,928 One is just that the block size, um, creates an intense, insanely 296 00:19:10,658 --> 00:19:15,298 large, um, um, blockchain over time. 297 00:19:16,158 --> 00:19:23,438 And that's where I think we in Bitcoin and in Lightning is much more honest about 298 00:19:23,448 --> 00:19:29,258 what are the challenges in Lightning today and what are, how does it scale, um, in 299 00:19:29,258 --> 00:19:34,408 what areas do we need to improve, uh, and all of these things, uh, rather than 300 00:19:34,408 --> 00:19:36,598 just saying, okay, we, we have sold it. 301 00:19:36,608 --> 00:19:38,278 Everything is fantastic. 302 00:19:38,388 --> 00:19:39,768 Uh, it will work forever. 303 00:19:40,428 --> 00:19:43,458 Um, we address sort of these problems and, and work on them. 304 00:19:43,975 --> 00:19:45,985 Okay, we have some big news. 305 00:19:46,355 --> 00:19:48,595 We have a new lead sponsor, AmberApp. 306 00:19:49,435 --> 00:19:52,035 They're the number one exchange in the Southern Hemisphere. 307 00:19:52,345 --> 00:19:55,245 They're rated for the best customer service around and 308 00:19:55,265 --> 00:19:56,985 their global launch is coming. 309 00:19:57,655 --> 00:20:02,165 But the reason we're partnering with AmberApp is because of the people. 310 00:20:02,695 --> 00:20:05,805 If you haven't listened to our episode with Izzy, CEO of AmberApp, 311 00:20:05,865 --> 00:20:07,665 you really should go check it out. 312 00:20:08,355 --> 00:20:12,245 You'll see why it made perfect sense to partner with Izzy and AmberApp. 313 00:20:12,615 --> 00:20:13,085 That's it. 314 00:20:13,305 --> 00:20:15,885 All I'll say for now, you really have to check it out for yourself. 315 00:20:16,495 --> 00:20:19,535 They have loads of great features coming that we're excited to share 316 00:20:19,535 --> 00:20:22,905 with you when the time comes, but for now, just check out the episode, 317 00:20:22,905 --> 00:20:24,295 check out their website, Ampr. 318 00:20:24,295 --> 00:20:24,575 app. 319 00:20:25,085 --> 00:20:27,972 You can see for yourself, why we're thrilled to bring Ampr. 320 00:20:27,972 --> 00:20:29,912 app on as our lead sponsor and partner. 321 00:20:30,342 --> 00:20:31,082 So go check it out. 322 00:20:31,822 --> 00:20:33,390 Next up WasabiWallet. 323 00:20:33,630 --> 00:20:37,080 The privacy by default, open source, non custodial Bitcoin 324 00:20:37,080 --> 00:20:38,790 wallet with CoinJoin built in. 325 00:20:39,370 --> 00:20:43,360 It's the easy to use, comprehensive, affordable way to make your coins private. 326 00:20:43,925 --> 00:20:46,935 And the best part is, they've been making huge improvements to the app. 327 00:20:47,245 --> 00:20:50,195 They're really focusing on the user experience, adding advanced 328 00:20:50,305 --> 00:20:52,855 features for power users, they just keep getting better. 329 00:20:53,375 --> 00:20:56,855 You send your coins to your Wasabi wallet, and they get combined with loads of 330 00:20:56,855 --> 00:21:00,975 other coins using the Wabi Sabi protocol, so they're private on the other end. 331 00:21:01,515 --> 00:21:05,025 Your tracks are covered so you can work on expanding your Freedom Footprint 332 00:21:05,175 --> 00:21:06,855 without worrying about your privacy. 333 00:21:07,735 --> 00:21:08,645 So, check out wasabiwallet. 334 00:21:08,645 --> 00:21:11,815 io and download Wasabi today. 335 00:21:12,761 --> 00:21:15,031 So how did you discover Bitcoin? 336 00:21:15,041 --> 00:21:17,421 Like what was your orange pilling journey? 337 00:21:17,421 --> 00:21:20,001 Like when, when did you get orange pilled and how? 338 00:21:20,928 --> 00:21:21,888 Yeah, it's interesting. 339 00:21:21,888 --> 00:21:26,748 I, I went through a route I think a lot of Bitcoins do with sort of the Bitcoin route 340 00:21:27,378 --> 00:21:34,478 where, um, I, I got into it, um, basically because I was interested in currency 341 00:21:34,483 --> 00:21:39,878 trading originally and discovered that maybe there's a interesting way to trade. 342 00:21:40,488 --> 00:21:45,798 And make money, uh, through arbitrage or momentum trading, uh, with, uh, bots. 343 00:21:46,478 --> 00:21:50,738 So I started playing around with that, a ton of different coins and got swept 344 00:21:50,738 --> 00:21:53,468 up in all that in 2017 especially. 345 00:21:54,058 --> 00:21:56,068 And, uh, went through the entire crash. 346 00:21:56,278 --> 00:22:00,298 And I think there's a small percentage each time who then's like what happened 347 00:22:00,448 --> 00:22:05,248 and realize that, oh, I should just bin at Bitcoin the entire time and get into that. 348 00:22:05,248 --> 00:22:08,488 And then I started really learning how Bitcoin converts, how. 349 00:22:09,253 --> 00:22:11,663 When I discovered Lightning, it was like, okay, game over. 350 00:22:11,723 --> 00:22:13,023 The other stuff is just BS. 351 00:22:13,193 --> 00:22:14,533 Uh, let's dive into this. 352 00:22:15,213 --> 00:22:19,143 Uh, and I've been working, um, really diving into Lightning after that. 353 00:22:20,653 --> 00:22:25,513 Um, where is, where are you on the, uh, sound money journey, like on, 354 00:22:25,513 --> 00:22:29,983 on the ethos of Bitcoin journey and the like, uh, on the, on the more 355 00:22:29,983 --> 00:22:32,983 philosophical prax logical side? 356 00:22:32,983 --> 00:22:37,393 Like what, what have you views on, uh, hyper colonization, for instance? 357 00:22:37,393 --> 00:22:39,913 Do you think that's a likely scenario? 358 00:22:39,913 --> 00:22:43,723 And, uh, if so, when and what does, what does it mean to you? 359 00:22:45,513 --> 00:22:47,393 Yeah, it's a very interesting topic. 360 00:22:47,493 --> 00:22:52,713 I think, I think I might be a bit unconventional Bitcoiner in that area. 361 00:22:52,723 --> 00:22:53,313 I think. 362 00:22:54,288 --> 00:22:58,678 If we see hyperbitcoinization in next year, then the world is in so much 363 00:22:58,678 --> 00:23:02,548 trouble that it's time to get your, your shotgun and guard your door. 364 00:23:03,728 --> 00:23:04,578 And the reason is 365 00:23:04,953 --> 00:23:05,763 that the case? 366 00:23:05,763 --> 00:23:10,323 Uh, if, if we're, if we don't get into hyper ization also though, 367 00:23:11,078 --> 00:23:13,298 yeah, I think there's going to be suffering either way. 368 00:23:13,518 --> 00:23:14,158 That's my point. 369 00:23:14,228 --> 00:23:21,303 I think where, um, We're in such a trouble, we're in such big trouble 370 00:23:21,333 --> 00:23:25,673 with the debt that we're in that there is no smooth way out of it. 371 00:23:26,343 --> 00:23:30,903 So essentially, if you stop all lending, and you go into hyperbitcoinization, 372 00:23:30,913 --> 00:23:37,373 and everybody just uses that, we're quickly into a situation where, um, 373 00:23:37,383 --> 00:23:42,637 so if everybody switches over to, um, to Bitcoin today, we're getting into a 374 00:23:42,637 --> 00:23:48,662 situation where I think the economy is going to go through a heavy, heavy crash. 375 00:23:48,662 --> 00:23:57,022 So even the housing market, for example, so I hope we transition 376 00:23:57,022 --> 00:23:58,392 there a bit more peacefully. 377 00:23:59,692 --> 00:24:03,532 yeah, you're, uh, I'm guessing your, your thoughts and your, um, 378 00:24:03,572 --> 00:24:05,412 idea on it is, is a bit different. 379 00:24:05,422 --> 00:24:06,982 And this is something I love to discuss. 380 00:24:07,887 --> 00:24:10,537 The different points of view in this, and I'm guessing that's what you've 381 00:24:10,537 --> 00:24:12,327 been doing a lot on the show so far. 382 00:24:12,518 --> 00:24:12,728 Yeah. 383 00:24:12,733 --> 00:24:15,398 Well, we're, we're, we're sort of on the philosophical side. 384 00:24:15,398 --> 00:24:19,658 I mean, we, we try to envision what, what, what this means and what it 385 00:24:19,663 --> 00:24:25,433 is and, uh, where, where the vectors are pointing and, uh, I always like 386 00:24:25,433 --> 00:24:30,173 to, to like, to try to extrapolate, extrapolate the, uh, thought vector as 387 00:24:30,173 --> 00:24:35,083 far ahead into the future and possible as possible and see, see where I end up. 388 00:24:35,088 --> 00:24:40,483 And it's, it's kind of hard to see anything but hyper ization happening 389 00:24:40,483 --> 00:24:42,493 given that everything else is crashing. 390 00:24:43,063 --> 00:24:45,703 Um, I mean, where else? 391 00:24:46,498 --> 00:24:47,838 Are the money supposed to go? 392 00:24:47,838 --> 00:24:55,318 I just don't see how in a, in a hyper interneted world that the, the, the 393 00:24:55,318 --> 00:24:59,678 money could go anywhere else than Bitcoin because it's the only stable thing left. 394 00:25:00,555 --> 00:25:00,875 Yeah. 395 00:25:00,875 --> 00:25:03,255 And that's a, that's a very good point. 396 00:25:03,295 --> 00:25:07,925 Um, most likely it becomes, um, over time it becomes the base, 397 00:25:08,155 --> 00:25:13,495 uh, value where we store value and perhaps also settle value across, 398 00:25:13,765 --> 00:25:16,275 uh, countries and larger operations. 399 00:25:17,085 --> 00:25:18,495 Um, definitely. 400 00:25:18,635 --> 00:25:25,000 Um, I guess it depends a bit on what, what you mean with hyperbitcoinization is if 401 00:25:25,300 --> 00:25:30,100 absolutely every other currency becomes Bitcoin and we only transact in Bitcoin, 402 00:25:30,590 --> 00:25:36,510 uh, and we eliminate all debt, that is, um, that is a different scenarios scenario 403 00:25:36,540 --> 00:25:41,690 than, for example, we don't limit debt and we, um, we have some other, uh, credit 404 00:25:41,700 --> 00:25:48,057 based systems around things, uh, to, um, to use as, um, um, Uh, in some cases, 405 00:25:48,177 --> 00:25:54,387 efficiency gains, but, um, yeah, it's, it's just, I feel like the world is just 406 00:25:54,477 --> 00:26:01,477 so far out of balance today that how that is used around the world is quite crazy. 407 00:26:02,017 --> 00:26:03,877 Um, but then again, I'm not an economic, 408 00:26:04,697 --> 00:26:09,292 no, uh, I mean, um, Uh, there can still be debt on a, on a 409 00:26:09,292 --> 00:26:10,572 Bitcoin standard, of course. 410 00:26:10,652 --> 00:26:16,652 Uh, it's just that the interest rates will better reflect what the lender and 411 00:26:16,652 --> 00:26:20,632 the, and the receiver actually agree upon. 412 00:26:20,722 --> 00:26:23,452 And we won't have these artificial things. 413 00:26:23,832 --> 00:26:27,452 I mean, there's, there's always a market for lower interest rates. 414 00:26:27,762 --> 00:26:33,337 I mean, It's basically a bet on, on the future, like, it's better to 415 00:26:33,337 --> 00:26:34,797 have money now than in the future. 416 00:26:34,827 --> 00:26:36,547 So, so that's where interest comes from. 417 00:26:36,547 --> 00:26:41,067 It's just that, and the free market should be able to, to figure out 418 00:26:41,067 --> 00:26:44,037 the correct interest rate by itself. 419 00:26:44,037 --> 00:26:48,007 It's just that it's been so manipulated at this point that it's not. 420 00:26:48,237 --> 00:26:52,127 It's just weird, like negative interest rates, for instance, it should make 421 00:26:52,137 --> 00:26:57,707 everyone like buy that shotgun and hide up in a cabin somewhere or leave the country 422 00:26:57,707 --> 00:27:00,977 because it's, it's, uh, just not possible. 423 00:27:01,617 --> 00:27:05,807 Uh, that word in itself, in my mind, should, should make people 424 00:27:07,017 --> 00:27:10,987 really scared because that's like the ultimate testament to that. 425 00:27:11,077 --> 00:27:12,107 You're being played. 426 00:27:12,317 --> 00:27:16,907 You're, you're being, you're, you're caught in a system that is using you. 427 00:27:17,627 --> 00:27:22,857 yeah, it's, um, it's definitely not as straightforward anymore as it 428 00:27:22,867 --> 00:27:25,677 was, uh, once, uh, once upon a time. 429 00:27:28,102 --> 00:27:34,612 Yeah, I, I think Bitcoin is a tool that can be used for a lot of good, it can be 430 00:27:34,612 --> 00:27:40,162 used in, uh, to fix a lot of systems, but there's another side of it, which I think 431 00:27:40,162 --> 00:27:43,962 a lot of Bitcoiners don't talk too much about, and that basically is the power 432 00:27:43,962 --> 00:27:49,882 of money in the, in the direct sense, uh, where if you have a lot of money, even 433 00:27:49,882 --> 00:27:55,837 if you have a lot of Bitcoin, you can use that as a tool to influence others to do 434 00:27:55,837 --> 00:27:57,777 things they basically don't want to do. 435 00:27:58,507 --> 00:28:02,597 Um, so of course, just doing work is one thing, but you mostly are happy 436 00:28:02,637 --> 00:28:04,117 to do work in order to get paid. 437 00:28:04,127 --> 00:28:06,967 But there's situation where you can pressure people to the point 438 00:28:06,977 --> 00:28:08,507 where, yeah, they're still working. 439 00:28:08,617 --> 00:28:09,877 They're still getting a salary. 440 00:28:10,392 --> 00:28:13,962 But that's the only option they have and the salary is not enough to live off. 441 00:28:14,292 --> 00:28:16,692 We don't really get rid of that problem still with Bitcoin. 442 00:28:17,232 --> 00:28:24,092 There's still going to be massive, massive, um, difference in, um, 443 00:28:25,022 --> 00:28:28,622 uh, in income around the world and, and power through that. 444 00:28:29,472 --> 00:28:32,512 And I think that's a problem that we don't address with Bitcoin and that we 445 00:28:32,642 --> 00:28:37,642 should be very aware of both in society today and in the future Bitcoin world. 446 00:28:39,867 --> 00:28:41,427 So, how is the climate at TORC? 447 00:28:41,437 --> 00:28:45,287 Like, do you discuss these philosophical stuff in the office, or 448 00:28:45,517 --> 00:28:47,127 wherever, if you even have an office? 449 00:28:47,127 --> 00:28:52,337 I guess you're mostly online, but do you discuss these things, 450 00:28:52,337 --> 00:28:55,497 or like, what's going on there? 451 00:28:56,412 --> 00:29:01,632 Yeah, um, we, we do once in a while, but we're also very tech focused, 452 00:29:01,802 --> 00:29:06,312 uh, and love sort of diving into how Lightning works and what it does. 453 00:29:06,992 --> 00:29:10,042 Um, but we certainly discuss it once in a while. 454 00:29:10,512 --> 00:29:12,652 Um, but yeah, we don't have a, a office. 455 00:29:12,652 --> 00:29:16,522 We're working completely remote, um, which changes the dynamic a bit, I guess. 456 00:29:17,218 --> 00:29:21,668 Yeah, from your accent, you're, you're from, uh, the space cat planet, right? 457 00:29:21,748 --> 00:29:23,568 Like, uh, but, but you're not an astronaut. 458 00:29:23,608 --> 00:29:25,808 So, so, uh, it must be Norway. 459 00:29:26,698 --> 00:29:27,498 Yeah, definitely. 460 00:29:27,698 --> 00:29:31,618 One of the guys in the team, they usually have like a space background. 461 00:29:31,798 --> 00:29:33,758 So bit in space. 462 00:29:34,530 --> 00:29:35,010 There you go. 463 00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:39,060 How is everything going in Norway, by the way, if that's 464 00:29:39,060 --> 00:29:40,410 where you're actually based? 465 00:29:40,420 --> 00:29:43,770 Because I mean, you can't actually tell by where someone is from 466 00:29:43,780 --> 00:29:45,080 originally where they actually are. 467 00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:45,630 But anyway, 468 00:29:46,265 --> 00:29:50,625 Yeah, no, I, uh, I'm born and raised in Oslo and still live in Oslo. 469 00:29:50,675 --> 00:29:52,705 So I never got out anywhere, I guess. 470 00:29:53,575 --> 00:29:54,425 Traveled a bit though. 471 00:29:54,475 --> 00:29:55,005 So that's good. 472 00:29:55,405 --> 00:30:00,735 But, uh, um, here, uh, I mean, that's, that's one of the things where I'm. 473 00:30:01,232 --> 00:30:07,759 not too interested in, I guess, in the politics, uh, in Norway and how things 474 00:30:07,769 --> 00:30:12,859 are evolving there and a bit of that is that it's so stable, so it might be very 475 00:30:12,859 --> 00:30:17,839 dark clouds on the horizon, but for, I guess, most people living in Norway, 476 00:30:18,429 --> 00:30:24,624 the so Economic situation is, is quite stable, uh, prices are, of course, going 477 00:30:24,624 --> 00:30:30,964 up, uh, there is inflation, um, there is, of course, one of the only ways to 478 00:30:30,964 --> 00:30:35,654 get out of the, the inflation we are in is that the regular people suffer. 479 00:30:36,004 --> 00:30:39,034 And I think people are starting to notice that, that they have less 480 00:30:39,064 --> 00:30:43,214 money, prices on everything is going up, especially the stuff that... 481 00:30:43,539 --> 00:30:47,329 isn't in the inflation numbers, like just groceries, right? 482 00:30:47,939 --> 00:30:51,509 Um, so, um, it's going to be interesting in the next few 483 00:30:51,519 --> 00:30:55,139 years when this sort of starts to stress the economy more and more. 484 00:30:55,605 --> 00:30:58,580 Yeah, the same thing is happening in Sweden, where the... 485 00:30:58,700 --> 00:31:06,120 The both the Kronos are losing value fast and it's pretty sad to see because 486 00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:11,090 most of the populations don't seem to realize what's going on, which is often 487 00:31:11,090 --> 00:31:13,490 the case when inflation hits hard. 488 00:31:14,190 --> 00:31:18,860 No one seems to be able to pierce the veil and see what's going on. 489 00:31:18,950 --> 00:31:23,050 But you know, the pay no attention to the men behind the curtain type thing. 490 00:31:23,755 --> 00:31:27,295 Uh, they're waving with one hand to make you not focus on the other. 491 00:31:27,925 --> 00:31:32,115 Um, do, do you know our friend Rune Østgaard by, by any chance? 492 00:31:32,415 --> 00:31:37,645 Another Norwegian, uh, recently came out with a book called Fraud Coin. 493 00:31:39,445 --> 00:31:41,975 Ah, yeah, yeah, I listened to his presentation on one 494 00:31:41,975 --> 00:31:44,135 of the local, um, meetups. 495 00:31:44,795 --> 00:31:46,965 Um, that was, that was great. 496 00:31:48,205 --> 00:31:52,545 Yeah, he has some great takes on, uh, on, uh, the situation in Norway 497 00:31:52,545 --> 00:31:56,975 and Norwegian politics is, uh, very active on Twitter and, uh, everyone 498 00:31:56,975 --> 00:31:58,335 should follow Rune, he's great. 499 00:31:59,635 --> 00:32:04,405 an aggressive Trønders separatist, which is interesting, but he's a fun guy. 500 00:32:04,955 --> 00:32:05,905 An aggressive what? 501 00:32:07,585 --> 00:32:10,475 He's advocated for the independence of Trøndelag. 502 00:32:10,475 --> 00:32:13,465 I don't, I don't know how serious he's actually being, but yeah. 503 00:32:13,815 --> 00:32:16,735 Yeah, I think that's a bit, um, humor in there. 504 00:32:17,665 --> 00:32:22,595 Yeah, uh, then again, um, it's the separation, the separation of 505 00:32:22,605 --> 00:32:25,635 money and state is the separation of everyone and state in the end. 506 00:32:25,645 --> 00:32:29,945 So like, so, so, uh, the smaller, the better. 507 00:32:30,065 --> 00:32:34,635 Like, uh, As long as we can still trade between the cantons, 508 00:32:34,935 --> 00:32:36,475 uh, we're fine, I guess. 509 00:32:38,010 --> 00:32:40,150 Every single farm out there is by zone. 510 00:32:41,730 --> 00:32:47,240 There's balance in these things again, I think, but it's, um, it's interesting 511 00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:52,980 to see, uh, that effect in, in the difference between the U S and Norway and, 512 00:32:52,990 --> 00:32:55,360 um, different how the starting point is. 513 00:32:57,925 --> 00:33:03,585 And I think the, um, the effect that you talked about earlier, people not 514 00:33:03,615 --> 00:33:07,935 noticing, I think this is something that's a bit scary for Norway and, uh, 515 00:33:07,945 --> 00:33:12,825 all countries basically is that some of these effects are, they're coming 516 00:33:12,845 --> 00:33:14,805 over time and they're quite subtle. 517 00:33:15,015 --> 00:33:16,105 They're hard to understand. 518 00:33:16,105 --> 00:33:19,005 And I think a lot of people are getting more and more frustrated. 519 00:33:19,400 --> 00:33:21,700 Because they feel like they're getting screwed in some way. 520 00:33:21,710 --> 00:33:25,220 They don't know the source of it and they start to blame everything 521 00:33:25,230 --> 00:33:29,880 around them in different directions and just frustration, uh, increases. 522 00:33:30,060 --> 00:33:36,300 Um, I think this is a bit behind the political, um, climate in, in the US. 523 00:33:36,490 --> 00:33:42,230 Uh, I'm not into politics, uh, the US, uh, at a level where I should discuss this, 524 00:33:42,270 --> 00:33:47,980 but it feels a bit like they're so much further ahead in that frustration than 525 00:33:47,990 --> 00:33:49,600 many other countries are at this point. 526 00:33:50,059 --> 00:33:54,449 Yeah, uh, given the video clips we see on social media over here 527 00:33:54,449 --> 00:33:58,879 about, uh, grocery prices being completely bonkers over there. 528 00:33:59,299 --> 00:34:02,989 But, uh, yeah, we're, we're headed, we're on the same path. 529 00:34:03,169 --> 00:34:05,349 And, uh, yeah, people should know this. 530 00:34:05,349 --> 00:34:07,239 Inflation is not a natural thing. 531 00:34:07,359 --> 00:34:13,049 It, it comes from some people in society being allowed to 532 00:34:13,049 --> 00:34:17,039 counterfeit money and others, while others don't have that privilege. 533 00:34:17,099 --> 00:34:18,329 That's where it comes from. 534 00:34:18,389 --> 00:34:21,179 That's the only reason that prices are going up and not down. 535 00:34:21,929 --> 00:34:23,699 And inflation is wage deflation. 536 00:34:23,699 --> 00:34:27,299 So what it does is just making everyone poorer over time. 537 00:34:27,449 --> 00:34:31,859 You, you're not getting a 5% raise a year, you're, you're, you're losing 5% 538 00:34:31,859 --> 00:34:33,659 per year because the inflation is 10%. 539 00:34:33,664 --> 00:34:37,579 So, like, and, and the real inflation is even higher than that because they, 540 00:34:37,909 --> 00:34:43,379 in this C P I basket, they don't, they don't take account for house, house 541 00:34:43,379 --> 00:34:45,599 prices and the stock market and so on. 542 00:34:45,604 --> 00:34:49,349 So, uh, it's, it's just a complete joke in the end. 543 00:34:49,559 --> 00:34:50,639 And the joke on you. 544 00:34:51,064 --> 00:34:53,684 So, get out, get some 545 00:34:53,799 --> 00:34:54,409 yeah, I mean, 546 00:34:54,994 --> 00:34:55,384 brush your 547 00:34:55,489 --> 00:35:00,129 yeah, yeah, yeah, actually, it's, uh, it's a really good 548 00:35:00,149 --> 00:35:01,399 argument to get into Bitcoin. 549 00:35:01,399 --> 00:35:03,629 I guess that's why everybody's talking about it. 550 00:35:04,319 --> 00:35:07,649 Um, and also like at the end of the day, it's the people who don't have 551 00:35:07,649 --> 00:35:12,704 an option and are just wage, um, Uh, getting a wage paycheck, those are 552 00:35:12,704 --> 00:35:16,574 the guys who are suffering in order to end massively increasing inflation, 553 00:35:17,154 --> 00:35:21,444 which, uh, we are in a, in a situation where you have a lot higher inflation 554 00:35:21,444 --> 00:35:23,804 than normal all around the world. 555 00:35:24,474 --> 00:35:29,864 Um, so yeah, it's, I think my, uh, outlook on that is a bit 556 00:35:30,074 --> 00:35:32,114 dark and pessimistic, I guess. 557 00:35:32,464 --> 00:35:33,984 Normal people are going to suffer. 558 00:35:34,646 --> 00:35:38,666 The show is also sponsored by Orange Pill App, the Bitcoin only social network where 559 00:35:38,666 --> 00:35:40,326 you can stack friends who stack sats. 560 00:35:40,926 --> 00:35:43,786 You can connect with your favorite Bitcoiners on the app, make local 561 00:35:43,786 --> 00:35:46,836 connections, and even connect with Bitcoiners around the world. 562 00:35:47,386 --> 00:35:50,886 You can see what's going on in your area and organize and attend local events. 563 00:35:51,327 --> 00:35:54,077 I've been to multiple events organized on Orange Pill App and they brought 564 00:35:54,077 --> 00:35:56,117 Bitcoiners together from all over. 565 00:35:56,596 --> 00:35:59,806 And now, with group chat, it's easier than ever to stay in touch 566 00:35:59,806 --> 00:36:01,126 with all your Bitcoin friends. 567 00:36:01,535 --> 00:36:03,725 The best part is you know it's high signal. 568 00:36:03,815 --> 00:36:06,805 There's no spam on OrangePillApp because everyone pays to be there. 569 00:36:07,015 --> 00:36:10,350 So download OrangePillApp on Apple or Android and start building 570 00:36:10,370 --> 00:36:11,670 your local network of Bitcoiners. 571 00:36:12,488 --> 00:36:14,088 Next up, The Bitcoin Way. 572 00:36:14,618 --> 00:36:17,928 Their mission is to onboard, educate, and remove barriers to 573 00:36:17,928 --> 00:36:19,538 taking self custody of your bitcoin. 574 00:36:20,088 --> 00:36:24,398 They cover everything from cold wallets to nodes, no KYC bitcoin purchases, 575 00:36:24,448 --> 00:36:26,878 inheritance planning, payments, and more. 576 00:36:27,408 --> 00:36:30,218 Whether you're new to bitcoin or you're an experienced bitcoiner looking to 577 00:36:30,228 --> 00:36:34,098 expand your freedom footprint, Or you know someone who this sounds perfect for? 578 00:36:34,458 --> 00:36:36,378 The Bitcoin Way has something for you. 579 00:36:37,018 --> 00:36:40,538 They have a skilled team, well versed in the Bitcoin space, and their goal is to 580 00:36:40,538 --> 00:36:44,428 make all the complexities of Bitcoin as straightforward as possible for everyone. 581 00:36:44,988 --> 00:36:47,488 And the best part is you can get started with a free 30 582 00:36:47,488 --> 00:36:48,668 minute call with their team. 583 00:36:49,188 --> 00:36:50,728 Go to thebitcoinway. 584 00:36:50,748 --> 00:36:52,958 com slash contact for more info. 585 00:36:53,559 --> 00:36:55,459 Our newest sponsor is Geyser. 586 00:36:55,789 --> 00:36:58,679 They are the portal to the creator economy on Bitcoin. 587 00:36:59,379 --> 00:37:03,099 On Geyser, creators can monetize their work through their communities 588 00:37:03,129 --> 00:37:04,749 in a social and engaging way. 589 00:37:05,129 --> 00:37:07,919 And supporters can send sats to their favorite projects. 590 00:37:08,366 --> 00:37:11,666 Geyser has also recently integrated with Zapps and Podcasting 2. 591 00:37:11,666 --> 00:37:12,126 0. 592 00:37:12,476 --> 00:37:16,026 So every Zapp sent to a Geyser address shows up on the Geyser page. 593 00:37:16,786 --> 00:37:18,246 We have a Geyser fund ourselves. 594 00:37:18,256 --> 00:37:20,416 It's the best way to support our show directly with Bitcoin. 595 00:37:21,426 --> 00:37:25,286 So whether you're a creator or a supporter, check out geyser at geyser. 596 00:37:25,286 --> 00:37:26,186 fund today. 597 00:37:26,553 --> 00:37:28,013 How about remittances? 598 00:37:28,063 --> 00:37:33,483 Is that a, uh, like, Lightning is always, uh, um, quite often, uh, advertised 599 00:37:33,483 --> 00:37:37,903 as being the, the, the real killer app of Lightning being remittances 600 00:37:37,903 --> 00:37:42,483 between countries, like, um, or at least that's a, a major use case. 601 00:37:43,003 --> 00:37:48,653 And I don't know how much of the network you actually monitor at TORC and like 602 00:37:48,803 --> 00:37:52,613 what you, what you see and what you don't see, but like, do you think there's, 603 00:37:53,093 --> 00:38:00,133 there are remittances being sent from Norway, for instance, to wherever refugees 604 00:38:00,133 --> 00:38:03,453 come from, like Syria and other places? 605 00:38:03,733 --> 00:38:05,343 Do you think there's any of that going on? 606 00:38:06,573 --> 00:38:10,013 So, um, that's also a distinction in, in Troy Cooper. 607 00:38:10,403 --> 00:38:14,083 The tooling we're building is focused on the operator operating, 608 00:38:14,203 --> 00:38:15,483 uh, operating their node. 609 00:38:15,813 --> 00:38:18,493 So they're actually not sending any data to us, and we're not 610 00:38:18,543 --> 00:38:23,173 analyzing either private data or public data, so we can't see these, 611 00:38:23,313 --> 00:38:25,323 uh, patterns directly in any way. 612 00:38:25,473 --> 00:38:29,918 All we can do is analyze the public, um, Uh, graph, the lightning graph, 613 00:38:29,928 --> 00:38:33,898 which means which channels, which nodes have chance with who, where 614 00:38:33,958 --> 00:38:37,058 liquidity is allocated and which channels are closing and opening. 615 00:38:37,922 --> 00:38:43,122 I mean, do you think there's that there are remittances sent by a 616 00:38:43,122 --> 00:38:48,022 lightning from the Scandinavian countries to like Ukraine and Syria 617 00:38:48,022 --> 00:38:50,172 and places like that at this moment? 618 00:38:50,682 --> 00:38:54,042 Or do you think that's just a fantasy thing at this point? 619 00:38:54,896 --> 00:38:56,396 I'm not sure in that direction. 620 00:38:56,396 --> 00:39:01,766 I know that lightning has huge benefits in countries where remittances are very, 621 00:39:01,766 --> 00:39:06,896 very expensive or slow, or where large parts of population don't have access to 622 00:39:06,896 --> 00:39:11,616 banking, um, digitally or even close by. 623 00:39:11,736 --> 00:39:16,146 Uh, some people have to travel quite a distance in order to reach a place that 624 00:39:16,146 --> 00:39:20,976 can help them, like Western Union, that can help them transact, uh, or get, um, 625 00:39:20,976 --> 00:39:23,436 money abroad or, uh, send money abroad. 626 00:39:24,416 --> 00:39:28,546 Um, then they additionally take a 10 percent charge or even much higher 627 00:39:28,546 --> 00:39:30,656 sometimes, uh, on their transaction. 628 00:39:31,596 --> 00:39:34,886 Um, and in those cases, Lightning has a huge benefit and is 629 00:39:34,936 --> 00:39:36,876 being used, uh, quite a bit. 630 00:39:37,516 --> 00:39:41,536 Um, so I think we, we need to see more of it and we need to see 631 00:39:41,536 --> 00:39:43,575 a dynamic where there are more. 632 00:39:43,726 --> 00:39:45,346 People exchanging directly. 633 00:39:45,556 --> 00:39:49,356 We need more apps that help people exchange in and out of their native 634 00:39:49,356 --> 00:39:52,416 currency very quickly in order to see that effect in that use case. 635 00:39:54,576 --> 00:39:58,936 Because for a lot of these people, they can't risk being in Bitcoin right now. 636 00:39:58,956 --> 00:40:02,616 They can't just instantly switch to just using Bitcoin because 637 00:40:03,616 --> 00:40:06,896 they have to live in a world where other people aren't using it. 638 00:40:07,866 --> 00:40:11,576 So there is a bit of cold start problem with Bitcoin in a lot of places. 639 00:40:12,284 --> 00:40:19,545 This is such a, uh, a sad part because, uh, yeah, it's like I, I, um, I see a, a 640 00:40:19,604 --> 00:40:21,884 bitcoin, a t m in a mall, for instance. 641 00:40:22,474 --> 00:40:26,764 Uh, and I see isn't this wonderful that you can just, uh, go there and get some, 642 00:40:27,404 --> 00:40:30,044 uh, euros, k y c free from a machine? 643 00:40:30,514 --> 00:40:35,799 Uh, But when you think one step further about that machine, it's, it's only 644 00:40:35,799 --> 00:40:39,739 a matter of time till all the vendors inside the mall realize that people don't 645 00:40:39,739 --> 00:40:41,149 even have to go through the machine. 646 00:40:41,159 --> 00:40:43,859 They could just accept Bitcoin payments directly. 647 00:40:44,429 --> 00:40:48,789 And, uh, I guess it's the same with remittances that people think 648 00:40:48,789 --> 00:40:51,749 that they need to exchange the Bitcoin for some local shitcoin, 649 00:40:52,549 --> 00:40:54,129 but when really they don't. 650 00:40:54,624 --> 00:40:55,294 They don't have to do that. 651 00:40:55,294 --> 00:40:59,274 They could just start this underground economy in their own circles. 652 00:40:59,304 --> 00:41:04,144 And that shows you the importance of orange pilling the people around your 653 00:41:04,154 --> 00:41:07,724 community to make this happen locally. 654 00:41:08,354 --> 00:41:11,724 It's not going to happen by itself. 655 00:41:11,724 --> 00:41:14,864 Well, it is, but it's going to go a lot faster when people 656 00:41:14,864 --> 00:41:16,864 talk to one another about it. 657 00:41:17,454 --> 00:41:22,764 Yeah, I also think like, as the size of the market cap of Bitcoin 658 00:41:22,774 --> 00:41:25,204 grows, we see that stabilize. 659 00:41:26,024 --> 00:41:31,884 We see also during the winter that the value of Bitcoins stabilize quite a bit. 660 00:41:32,424 --> 00:41:36,794 They have some of the sudden moves once in a while, but that helps in general, people 661 00:41:36,794 --> 00:41:40,274 just staying within the Bitcoin currency. 662 00:41:42,144 --> 00:41:46,224 But of course, I think having for a lot of merchants having that option where 663 00:41:46,224 --> 00:41:50,374 they don't even think about them using Bitcoin for quite some time, I think 664 00:41:50,384 --> 00:41:54,754 can actually be a benefit because then people slowly transition into Bitcoin. 665 00:41:55,884 --> 00:41:59,034 And we managed to bring the whole world on board instead of creating this sort 666 00:41:59,034 --> 00:42:01,784 of almost division where people are like, we're only going to use Bitcoin and 667 00:42:01,934 --> 00:42:03,364 others like we're never going to touch it. 668 00:42:04,404 --> 00:42:05,904 That's not the ideal situation. 669 00:42:05,914 --> 00:42:08,174 We should have this transition where. 670 00:42:08,454 --> 00:42:12,164 The people who only want to use Bitcoin can actually use it everywhere, regardless 671 00:42:12,204 --> 00:42:14,004 of other people adopting it or not. 672 00:42:14,024 --> 00:42:17,244 And that way we get much more natural adoption, I think. 673 00:42:17,274 --> 00:42:22,864 Um, so I'm always torn between this sort of idealistic thinking and ideal world 674 00:42:22,884 --> 00:42:25,774 and, and trying to think about how. 675 00:42:26,149 --> 00:42:31,429 Perhaps adoption can happen, and I think we as Bitcoiners have to compromise a 676 00:42:31,439 --> 00:42:35,199 bit with the rest of the world in terms of driving adoption without compromising 677 00:42:35,199 --> 00:42:39,619 on how Bitcoin works and how we're, where we're going to end up in the end. 678 00:42:40,487 --> 00:42:46,807 Yeah, to me, this is definitely a transition phase where these solutions 679 00:42:47,117 --> 00:42:52,497 between all the currencies are happening, because it's sort of like those stationary 680 00:42:52,497 --> 00:42:59,487 computers that had two DVD slots, one for burning a DVD and one for reading one. 681 00:43:00,017 --> 00:43:02,477 And you could just copy movies that way. 682 00:43:03,277 --> 00:43:07,057 When the data is all there, you can just send it to someone. 683 00:43:07,397 --> 00:43:11,387 And like, it's, uh, maybe that's a bad analogy, but, but there are lots of 684 00:43:11,387 --> 00:43:18,167 examples of, uh, of this, like phone companies trying to hinder IP telephony 685 00:43:18,167 --> 00:43:23,037 and, and stuff like that, like, uh, uh, sooner or later people will realize 686 00:43:23,077 --> 00:43:27,857 that the, uh, the network is the network and you don't need the other 687 00:43:27,857 --> 00:43:29,717 networks for the network to function. 688 00:43:31,297 --> 00:43:32,247 Exactly, yeah. 689 00:43:32,817 --> 00:43:37,497 I mean, it's, um, it's always a mix between technology limitations in 690 00:43:37,527 --> 00:43:42,237 technology and limitations in what people understand and can adopt. 691 00:43:43,037 --> 00:43:49,757 Um, I think Bitcoin has a bigger problem with, um, with how merchants and how 692 00:43:49,787 --> 00:43:51,967 people relate and think about it. 693 00:43:53,217 --> 00:43:57,647 And I think we need companies who think much more about the commerce 694 00:43:57,697 --> 00:44:01,977 side than perhaps the ideal state of people holding Bitcoin in their wallet. 695 00:44:02,507 --> 00:44:10,107 I think the ideal solution for adoption is the case where I can go with my app 696 00:44:10,107 --> 00:44:16,467 of choice and pay for whatever in a different country by just scanning a QR 697 00:44:16,527 --> 00:44:21,647 code or tapping the phone to whatever terminal that already exists in that shop. 698 00:44:22,277 --> 00:44:26,297 Um, and when I do that, it exchanges from my Norwegian banking account 699 00:44:26,317 --> 00:44:30,727 into Bitcoin over to the merchants and perhaps back into their currency. 700 00:44:31,257 --> 00:44:35,927 Because having that choice, um, makes it possible for me to choose either. 701 00:44:36,142 --> 00:44:40,852 Loading my shitcoin, local shitcoins into Bitcoin, transacting that 702 00:44:40,852 --> 00:44:45,602 way, or just having that super seamless transition when I need it. 703 00:44:46,412 --> 00:44:49,842 So there is no disruption or extra steps in order to pay. 704 00:44:51,032 --> 00:44:56,312 That's for at least the, the sort of Europe and US and these areas. 705 00:44:56,722 --> 00:45:00,762 In other countries that have a much, much bigger problem with either their financial 706 00:45:00,782 --> 00:45:07,737 system or Um, their local, uh, coins, uh, deflating at an even higher rate. 707 00:45:08,247 --> 00:45:10,197 Um, it's different again. 708 00:45:10,297 --> 00:45:12,967 I think the willingness to hold Bitcoin might be much, much higher. 709 00:45:13,487 --> 00:45:17,993 It's funny that we're seeing these days, um, like a whole 710 00:45:18,003 --> 00:45:23,523 thing about what is really Going on with with Bitcoin adoption. 711 00:45:23,543 --> 00:45:28,163 And right now there's a little bit of Twitter drama going on where where 712 00:45:28,213 --> 00:45:35,133 our friends Joe Nakamoto and Paco de la India are, are going around the 713 00:45:35,133 --> 00:45:41,998 world and showing Bitcoin adoption and, and um, Well, the showing 714 00:45:41,998 --> 00:45:45,418 it and also, you know, trying to increase it and all that good stuff. 715 00:45:45,878 --> 00:45:48,778 Um, and there's, there's some smooth brains out there. 716 00:45:48,778 --> 00:45:53,718 I won't say who they are, who, who are, uh, saying that, you know, that 717 00:45:53,738 --> 00:45:58,938 like, uh, if a merchant allows Bitcoin payments and such a small percentage of 718 00:45:58,938 --> 00:46:03,148 their, their payments are in Bitcoin, well, then what's the value to them 719 00:46:03,328 --> 00:46:06,012 and all this, but the, I don't know. 720 00:46:06,283 --> 00:46:13,833 On the ground of it all is that just by convincing merchants to take it and seeing 721 00:46:13,833 --> 00:46:19,783 that Bitcoin is accepted somewhere, right, like, the payment side and the adoption, 722 00:46:20,013 --> 00:46:26,303 it really does help, right, like, it's not as if a merchant accepting Bitcoin is 723 00:46:26,313 --> 00:46:31,223 going to be even like really a negative for them, unless it massively increases 724 00:46:31,223 --> 00:46:35,908 their anxiety about whether they're tax burden or, or regulatory accounting 725 00:46:35,918 --> 00:46:41,428 needs or something like that, which is, uh, fair that happens in some, some 726 00:46:41,468 --> 00:46:48,748 countries that don't get it, but, but, uh, merchant adoption and payments and, 727 00:46:48,748 --> 00:46:52,688 and all this, this is what the lightning network work is really for, right? 728 00:46:52,698 --> 00:46:56,988 Like that, that's the purpose to actually facilitate the payment side of Bitcoin as 729 00:46:56,988 --> 00:46:58,358 opposed to just keeping a store of value. 730 00:46:58,368 --> 00:46:59,528 Like, what are your thoughts on that? 731 00:47:00,383 --> 00:47:01,063 Yeah, exactly. 732 00:47:01,063 --> 00:47:07,983 I mean, my thoughts in general is that the companies, um, And the people pushing 733 00:47:08,133 --> 00:47:15,583 this online and, um, people operating with lightning, we need to look at how 734 00:47:15,623 --> 00:47:19,973 payments work in the different countries, what the challenges are, and we need to 735 00:47:19,973 --> 00:47:25,473 solve them, um, because nobody's adopting this technology or that's incorrect. 736 00:47:25,673 --> 00:47:27,203 A few people are adopting it. 737 00:47:27,753 --> 00:47:31,133 Just because they want to use that new technology, when you look at the 738 00:47:31,153 --> 00:47:35,823 total population, people care about money, people care about simplicity, 739 00:47:35,883 --> 00:47:41,413 especially simplicity, people even pay money to not have to bother with things. 740 00:47:41,953 --> 00:47:47,443 Like you see with credit card fees and this, like, imagine how much money is 741 00:47:47,753 --> 00:47:50,823 lost by merchants, large merchants. 742 00:47:51,263 --> 00:47:54,033 paying percentages based on transactions. 743 00:47:54,673 --> 00:47:58,693 They're doing that for convenience and they're doing that because they don't 744 00:47:58,693 --> 00:48:02,483 really see that expense that that's sort of just deducted from what they 745 00:48:02,483 --> 00:48:05,933 receive and it's just calculated into the price but they might pay millions 746 00:48:05,973 --> 00:48:10,893 millions for this little box that the customer taps in order to pay them or 747 00:48:10,893 --> 00:48:13,233 whatever form they fill in to to pay. 748 00:48:15,713 --> 00:48:20,523 For their goods online and for lightning adoption in certain 749 00:48:20,523 --> 00:48:24,303 countries, we need to reach the point where the simplicity is equal. 750 00:48:24,393 --> 00:48:28,773 Uh, and, uh, people don't really think about this differently, 751 00:48:28,773 --> 00:48:31,953 but we get all the benefits we get from lightning transactions, 752 00:48:31,953 --> 00:48:33,543 which is the final settlement. 753 00:48:34,053 --> 00:48:36,423 We get the speed of that transaction. 754 00:48:36,483 --> 00:48:40,053 Uh, the price of that transaction is much lower, especially if you do it right. 755 00:48:40,763 --> 00:48:46,503 Uh, we need, um, we need to just show that and sell that, not sell Bitcoin. 756 00:48:46,998 --> 00:48:50,298 and beginning to get these people because they don't care about Bitcoin, right? 757 00:48:50,828 --> 00:48:54,278 We care about Bitcoin and we're trying to get people to care about Bitcoin 758 00:48:54,288 --> 00:49:00,258 because of all the important, um, benefits that has, but as we see at 759 00:49:00,278 --> 00:49:04,848 massive scale, people don't do their, do what's good for them necessarily, right? 760 00:49:05,288 --> 00:49:08,578 Uh, convenience and just going through your day is often... 761 00:49:08,938 --> 00:49:13,118 Enough, uh, for people to just, I don't know, be distracted and not caring 762 00:49:13,118 --> 00:49:15,238 about the important parts of this. 763 00:49:15,268 --> 00:49:20,608 So we need to meet people, um, where they are, and we need to 764 00:49:20,608 --> 00:49:22,318 solve the problems in each country. 765 00:49:22,358 --> 00:49:26,918 And we need to, yeah, make it easy for people to make the right choice. 766 00:49:27,797 --> 00:49:30,547 Any thoughts on El Salvador and what is going on there? 767 00:49:30,647 --> 00:49:32,967 And any thoughts on Chivo Wallet? 768 00:49:33,017 --> 00:49:34,297 Is that a psy op? 769 00:49:34,527 --> 00:49:37,917 Like, is that a CBDC in disguise? 770 00:49:37,947 --> 00:49:40,957 Like, well, what are your thoughts on El Salvador in general? 771 00:49:41,556 --> 00:49:44,246 Um, to be honest, I'm not deep enough into it. 772 00:49:44,246 --> 00:49:48,336 I see stuff on Twitter, but it's so easy on Twitter to say, Oh, that's bad. 773 00:49:48,336 --> 00:49:49,026 Oh, that's good. 774 00:49:49,026 --> 00:49:49,276 Right. 775 00:49:49,646 --> 00:49:52,586 Um, without really looking deeper into what's going on. 776 00:49:52,636 --> 00:49:57,651 Um, I've heard there is issues with adoption, and I think that goes back to 777 00:49:57,651 --> 00:49:59,361 the same stuff I talked about earlier. 778 00:50:00,351 --> 00:50:01,401 People don't understand it. 779 00:50:01,411 --> 00:50:03,941 They don't necessarily know what's good for them. 780 00:50:04,981 --> 00:50:07,231 It is a hard transition, right? 781 00:50:07,421 --> 00:50:12,621 Imagine that we just suddenly come in and say like, in 1997, 782 00:50:13,371 --> 00:50:17,111 we say just everybody should use internet right now to send mail. 783 00:50:19,091 --> 00:50:20,921 A lot of people aren't going to do that, right? 784 00:50:21,281 --> 00:50:23,781 Um, and the convenience stress isn't high enough. 785 00:50:23,801 --> 00:50:30,361 So we need to, to, to get to that point and need to be not necessarily patient, 786 00:50:30,411 --> 00:50:36,361 uh, but need to understand how heavy and how much needs to change to get there. 787 00:50:36,401 --> 00:50:41,996 So I'm actually quite positive of what's happening in El Salvador in terms of Uh, 788 00:50:42,106 --> 00:50:47,236 whatever adoption we have, uh, we need to just keep working on it and increase that. 789 00:50:48,009 --> 00:50:49,829 But yeah, again, I'm not too deep into it. 790 00:50:49,829 --> 00:50:53,779 There's probably a lot of problems in different places, uh, that you 791 00:50:53,779 --> 00:50:58,629 alluded to that I'm not deeply into enough because I'm so focused on 792 00:50:58,629 --> 00:51:02,859 building and working in the Lightning industry from a technical perspective. 793 00:51:04,384 --> 00:51:05,024 Oh, that's great. 794 00:51:05,034 --> 00:51:06,444 That's the division of labor. 795 00:51:06,574 --> 00:51:11,714 Uh, I mean, focus on what you're good at and things will sort themselves out. 796 00:51:11,814 --> 00:51:12,284 Right, Luke? 797 00:51:13,124 --> 00:51:13,974 Yeah, absolutely. 798 00:51:13,974 --> 00:51:18,414 I mean, we need people who understand the technical side and I've got a technical 799 00:51:18,424 --> 00:51:22,694 background and I still even have a fiat job that's kind of tech oriented. 800 00:51:22,694 --> 00:51:29,644 And the thing is, it's still Really not something that I can personally focus 801 00:51:29,694 --> 00:51:34,624 on building the the tech side juggling a fiat job and something like that. 802 00:51:34,654 --> 00:51:38,544 And so so, yeah, for people who actually are able to make the 803 00:51:38,844 --> 00:51:44,144 leap to to work on Bitcoin, it's it's really fantastic to see. 804 00:51:44,144 --> 00:51:50,484 And, and, I mean, how does it work that that to actually get information 805 00:51:50,959 --> 00:51:54,529 Developers and technical people to be able to do more things with Bitcoin 806 00:51:54,539 --> 00:52:00,089 because I, I really do see it as a, as a problem that, for example, they can 807 00:52:00,089 --> 00:52:04,869 just, again, with the shit coins, they can just get a bag of shit coin money to 808 00:52:04,869 --> 00:52:10,699 go work on some blockchain project, or they can mine fiat and do normie things. 809 00:52:11,289 --> 00:52:16,629 Um, how, how do we get developers to, to, uh, Bitcoin and to understand, 810 00:52:16,849 --> 00:52:19,519 uh, why it's important for them to spend their time on that? 811 00:52:20,116 --> 00:52:24,466 Yeah, I mean, I think there's a lot more developers who really want to work 812 00:52:24,476 --> 00:52:27,956 with Bitcoin and on Bitcoin than the people who get the chance to do it. 813 00:52:28,576 --> 00:52:36,321 Um, the reason for that is, as you said, with With shitcoins, you can 814 00:52:36,321 --> 00:52:40,641 just basically print money out of nowhere, uh, and convince people 815 00:52:40,651 --> 00:52:44,341 through massive amount of marketing that they're worth something, and then 816 00:52:44,341 --> 00:52:48,941 cash that out in order to fund your development, uh, or fund VCs, essentially. 817 00:52:48,951 --> 00:52:52,901 And a lot of VCs have gotten used to the fact that you, you 818 00:52:52,911 --> 00:52:57,551 create this token, you dump it on people, uh, within a year or two. 819 00:52:57,581 --> 00:52:59,131 And if you're a VC. 820 00:52:59,936 --> 00:53:03,766 And you get the choice between a regular startup that spends 10 years 821 00:53:03,766 --> 00:53:10,416 until they can cash out, um, or two years from some, yeah, token. 822 00:53:10,926 --> 00:53:14,256 Um, you're going to do the former, uh, no, the later, I mean. 823 00:53:14,696 --> 00:53:20,926 Um, and that's where Bitcoin is in this position where, funding wise, 824 00:53:21,406 --> 00:53:23,946 they, they operate like in normal. 825 00:53:24,451 --> 00:53:26,021 Um, startup. 826 00:53:26,401 --> 00:53:28,681 So it is the near horizon on things, right. 827 00:53:29,201 --> 00:53:34,361 Um, while the investors who are there are often coming from sort 828 00:53:34,361 --> 00:53:35,861 of the general crypto space. 829 00:53:36,151 --> 00:53:40,561 Uh, of course we have Bitcoin focused VCs and they're often really good, but. 830 00:53:41,201 --> 00:53:44,141 There's limited amount of money in that, which in, in, so 831 00:53:44,141 --> 00:53:45,461 the, the Bitcoin focused one. 832 00:53:46,081 --> 00:53:49,501 So, so you have this huge division, uh, and separation between sort 833 00:53:49,501 --> 00:53:52,441 of the rest of the, the VC world and so the, the Bitcoin VCs. 834 00:53:53,511 --> 00:53:58,291 And that results in less money for the true Bitcoin companies, 835 00:53:58,531 --> 00:54:00,271 uh, which results in fewer jobs. 836 00:54:01,021 --> 00:54:05,371 So there are a lot of people right now who's just either, uh, part-time 837 00:54:05,371 --> 00:54:10,711 or full-time working on open source projects or in companies for lower. 838 00:54:11,011 --> 00:54:15,841 Rages because they're really passionate about getting this to work and doing 839 00:54:15,841 --> 00:54:21,081 the work that is needed, um, for Bitcoin to evolve and to work, and, um. 840 00:54:21,901 --> 00:54:25,741 yeah, I mean, uh, I think it is something that's worthwhile doing 841 00:54:25,751 --> 00:54:30,241 because this industry is growing, uh, steadily through the bear market. 842 00:54:30,681 --> 00:54:35,571 It grows of course, um, a lot in funding wise in the, in the bull market. 843 00:54:36,211 --> 00:54:41,246 And the only way to really get into this industry is through fruitful work. 844 00:54:41,416 --> 00:54:47,046 Uh, you need to show that you understand Bitcoin and especially Lightning 845 00:54:47,056 --> 00:54:49,536 has a complexity that's higher. 846 00:54:49,566 --> 00:54:50,736 It is harder to understand. 847 00:54:50,746 --> 00:54:57,046 There's more terms, um, both from sort of user perspective and from development 848 00:54:57,206 --> 00:54:59,346 perspective of how the network works. 849 00:55:00,046 --> 00:55:05,276 Um, so yeah, proof of work, you really dive into it, uh, spare time 850 00:55:05,346 --> 00:55:09,016 in the beginning if you need to and, uh, get into the industry now. 851 00:55:10,531 --> 00:55:10,751 Yeah. 852 00:55:10,751 --> 00:55:13,661 Proof of work leads leading up to proof of results. 853 00:55:13,991 --> 00:55:16,321 Uh, at some point, that's what we're looking for. 854 00:55:16,941 --> 00:55:21,061 Henrik, thank you very much for the conversation and I hope to see you soon. 855 00:55:21,601 --> 00:55:26,351 Before we leave, can you guide our listeners to where to find you and where 856 00:55:26,351 --> 00:55:31,181 to find TORQ and are you attending any conferences this year or stuff like that? 857 00:55:32,261 --> 00:55:38,221 Yeah, I've, uh, I'm attending the Adopting Bitcoin conference, uh, so, uh, go there. 858 00:55:38,221 --> 00:55:41,921 I think that's a great, uh, conference, uh, also for Lightning. 859 00:55:42,681 --> 00:55:48,001 Um, you can find Torque at, um, Twitter with, uh, at Torque LN. 860 00:55:49,521 --> 00:55:51,751 And, uh, myself at O. 861 00:55:51,801 --> 00:55:57,211 Henrik Skogström, a bit hard to pronounce and understand, so maybe we 862 00:55:57,211 --> 00:56:01,271 can add something in the show notes, um, but that's the main two channels. 863 00:56:01,391 --> 00:56:06,021 Uh, we're also writing a lot of content on Toric LN, uh, to, to help 864 00:56:06,031 --> 00:56:07,861 bring people, uh, into Lightning. 865 00:56:08,740 --> 00:56:09,310 Wonderful. 866 00:56:09,360 --> 00:56:10,600 Thank you so much, Henrik. 867 00:56:10,920 --> 00:56:12,910 This has been the Freedom Footprint Show. 868 00:56:13,160 --> 00:56:14,040 Thanks for listening. 869 00:56:14,597 --> 00:56:16,347 So what did you think of that episode with Henrik? 870 00:56:16,717 --> 00:56:18,637 It was interesting to learn more about how the Lightning 871 00:56:18,637 --> 00:56:19,937 Network works under the hood. 872 00:56:20,477 --> 00:56:21,667 What was your favorite moment? 873 00:56:21,817 --> 00:56:22,497 Let us know. 874 00:56:22,897 --> 00:56:25,747 You can send us a boostergram on Fountain, leave us a comment on YouTube, 875 00:56:25,757 --> 00:56:27,577 or get in touch on Nostr or Twitter. 876 00:56:28,197 --> 00:56:30,327 If you're watching on YouTube, don't forget to like the episode 877 00:56:30,327 --> 00:56:31,467 and subscribe to the channel. 878 00:56:31,947 --> 00:56:35,947 Our show's sponsors are AmberApp, WasabiWallet, OrangePillApp, 879 00:56:36,087 --> 00:56:37,807 TheBitcoinWay, and Geyser. 880 00:56:38,207 --> 00:56:39,837 All their information is in the description. 881 00:56:40,687 --> 00:56:44,587 That's all for now, see you next time, and thanks for listening.