Quantum Computing and Interplanetary Horizons with Dhruv Bansal - Freedom Footprint Show 55

1 00:00:00,020 --> 00:00:03,880 I think also there's this notion of we're so early that we barely understand it. 2 00:00:04,229 --> 00:00:09,679 I think 300 years from now and Bitcoin has been ascendant for centuries and 3 00:00:09,839 --> 00:00:13,300 everyone assumes this is how it always worked, I think our level of understanding 4 00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:15,975 of all of this will be higher, 5 00:00:16,194 --> 00:00:20,534 In our grandchildren's minds, us three here, this conversation 6 00:00:20,534 --> 00:00:21,654 will be drooling idiots. 7 00:00:22,024 --> 00:00:22,994 Yes, exactly. 8 00:00:23,274 --> 00:00:23,564 Yeah. 9 00:00:24,314 --> 00:00:25,454 there's no way around that. 10 00:00:25,754 --> 00:00:30,014 So I hope at least has entertainment value to them so they can laugh at us. 11 00:00:30,434 --> 00:00:32,164 Welcome back to the Freedom Footprint Show. 12 00:00:32,844 --> 00:00:36,974 The Bitcoin Philosophy Show with Knut Svanholm and me, Luke the Pseudo Finn. 13 00:00:37,350 --> 00:00:41,710 Today, we're joined by Dhruv Bansal, the co founder of Unchained Capital, 14 00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:46,120 a financial services company building products for long term Bitcoin holders. 15 00:00:46,620 --> 00:00:49,090 In this episode, we explore the relationship between 16 00:00:49,130 --> 00:00:50,330 physics and economics. 17 00:00:50,627 --> 00:00:54,177 We discover all about Unchained Capital and the relevance of collaborative 18 00:00:54,177 --> 00:00:55,667 custody for long term holders. 19 00:00:55,920 --> 00:00:59,130 We discuss KYC and the future of Bitcoin regulations. 20 00:00:59,220 --> 00:01:04,060 And finally, we deep Dive into quantum computing and the interplanetary 21 00:01:04,070 --> 00:01:05,610 horizons of the blockchain. 22 00:01:05,994 --> 00:01:09,264 But before we dive in, a quick reminder that the best way to support the show 23 00:01:09,264 --> 00:01:12,374 is to send us a boost or stream us some sats using a value for value 24 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to us there. 36 00:01:39,754 --> 00:01:41,254 It would be a big help. 37 00:01:41,934 --> 00:01:43,874 And finally, we want to thank today's sponsors. 38 00:01:44,244 --> 00:01:46,864 Wasabi Wallet, Orange Pill App, The Bitcoin Way. 39 00:01:47,124 --> 00:01:48,854 zellox and bitcoinbook. 40 00:01:48,914 --> 00:01:49,314 shop. 41 00:01:49,954 --> 00:01:51,614 All their information is in the description. 42 00:01:51,624 --> 00:01:53,384 We'll be talking a bit more about them later. 43 00:01:53,931 --> 00:01:58,231 And now, without further ado, here is Dhruv Bansal on 44 00:01:58,601 --> 00:01:59,641 the Freedom Footprint show. 45 00:02:00,120 --> 00:02:02,037 Dhruv, welcome to the Freedom Footprint show. 46 00:02:02,057 --> 00:02:02,817 Thanks for joining us. 47 00:02:03,597 --> 00:02:04,407 Thanks for having me guys. 48 00:02:04,407 --> 00:02:05,247 It's a pleasure to be on. 49 00:02:05,820 --> 00:02:07,527 Pleasure to have you here, Dhruv. 50 00:02:07,527 --> 00:02:10,807 Yeah, let's start off with a presentation of you. 51 00:02:10,947 --> 00:02:13,677 Can you give us the TLDR on Dhruv Bansal? 52 00:02:13,697 --> 00:02:17,493 Who are you and when did you find Bitcoin and all this stuff? 53 00:02:17,760 --> 00:02:18,120 Sure. 54 00:02:18,449 --> 00:02:22,009 I started out my career as a, as a physicist at the University of Texas at 55 00:02:22,009 --> 00:02:24,839 Austin, like this way back in 2005 or so. 56 00:02:24,929 --> 00:02:27,539 So dating myself, um, just pre Bitcoin. 57 00:02:27,972 --> 00:02:30,516 my research area was, kind of focused on. 58 00:02:31,246 --> 00:02:34,336 You know, big human systems, even though I was, even though I was a physicist, I 59 00:02:34,336 --> 00:02:38,796 was often taking real world data sets and, you know, stock markets, school systems, 60 00:02:38,826 --> 00:02:41,646 economies, whatever, looking at them from, you know, kind of a physics perspective. 61 00:02:41,646 --> 00:02:44,846 There's some interesting things I felt that, you know, even physicists could say, 62 00:02:45,236 --> 00:02:49,991 uh, about those complex systems, that led to like a big love of programming and data 63 00:02:49,991 --> 00:02:55,281 sets and interacting online in an era that was like a little bit just pre GitHub, pre 64 00:02:55,281 --> 00:02:58,781 a bunch of tools that we kind of take for granted today, before AWS, for example. 65 00:02:59,184 --> 00:03:02,364 and it was just really hard to move data around, and so I kind 66 00:03:02,364 --> 00:03:04,694 of fell into no, no plan at all. 67 00:03:04,704 --> 00:03:06,064 This was not my life plan. 68 00:03:06,064 --> 00:03:09,454 I was going to be a physicist, but I kind of fell into this startup with 69 00:03:09,644 --> 00:03:13,554 Joe Kelly, my co founder here at Unchained, um, and third co founder, 70 00:03:13,554 --> 00:03:14,962 Flip Cromer, the physics department. 71 00:03:14,963 --> 00:03:18,463 So the three of us before Unchained started this business around data and 72 00:03:18,703 --> 00:03:23,336 Cloud computing and, DevOps and all these trends that were kind of colliding 73 00:03:23,346 --> 00:03:25,206 in that, you know, mid 2000s era. 74 00:03:25,906 --> 00:03:27,936 Um, a lot of stuff that was coming, you know, out of Google 75 00:03:28,116 --> 00:03:29,676 and sort of becoming open source. 76 00:03:30,020 --> 00:03:31,230 and so I really learned a lot. 77 00:03:31,280 --> 00:03:34,440 I said, we want to starting a business kind of building out infrastructure like 78 00:03:34,440 --> 00:03:37,690 this to help people move data around often in the enterprise, you know, banks 79 00:03:37,690 --> 00:03:39,510 and big companies and manufacturers. 80 00:03:39,510 --> 00:03:40,670 That's kind of where we found success. 81 00:03:40,670 --> 00:03:42,030 Ultimately, we started in a nerdier. 82 00:03:42,210 --> 00:03:44,000 area of the world, but that's where we found success. 83 00:03:44,420 --> 00:03:47,390 And so in this process, I learned a lot about like distributed systems 84 00:03:48,330 --> 00:03:51,680 and, you know, like machine learning, but like also like how a distributed 85 00:03:51,690 --> 00:03:55,590 database works and how time is a really important idea on those systems. 86 00:03:55,590 --> 00:03:58,150 And of course, these are all centralized databases, right? 87 00:03:58,150 --> 00:04:01,500 They're distributed, but they're all run by the same guy, often me, right? 88 00:04:01,520 --> 00:04:03,410 Like setting up a large cluster of machines. 89 00:04:04,030 --> 00:04:08,770 Um, somewhere in that story, I met someone, um, at a conference, open source 90 00:04:08,770 --> 00:04:12,250 conference about databases and stuff, like he was talking about Bitcoin and. 91 00:04:12,610 --> 00:04:16,030 In my head, I'm just like, I can't think of it as anything other than a 92 00:04:16,030 --> 00:04:19,240 distributed database, you know, like, I just, I don't know anything about 93 00:04:19,240 --> 00:04:22,900 money, I don't have any money, I've never heard of Austrian economics, probably 94 00:04:22,930 --> 00:04:24,260 wouldn't have cared about it if I had. 95 00:04:24,646 --> 00:04:27,797 This guy's talking about so much about the code, the blockchain, this, 96 00:04:27,827 --> 00:04:31,947 blockchain, that, right, and I'm just like, I had enough background in these 97 00:04:31,947 --> 00:04:36,137 distributed systems and database stuff to sort of, Understand that like, 98 00:04:36,137 --> 00:04:38,037 okay, this is actually a real thing. 99 00:04:38,037 --> 00:04:39,503 Like this could work. 100 00:04:39,503 --> 00:04:44,393 I concede that this is a very clever and interesting design for a database, 101 00:04:44,743 --> 00:04:48,523 but I could not understand why it should have a price, like what the 102 00:04:48,523 --> 00:04:49,973 money has to do with any of it. 103 00:04:49,973 --> 00:04:53,243 Like, I just, I thought it was, um, There's these esoteric programming 104 00:04:53,243 --> 00:04:56,263 languages like BrainFuck and things like this that are like 105 00:04:56,593 --> 00:04:58,133 designed to be hard to use. 106 00:04:58,143 --> 00:05:01,513 They're like a Rube Goldberg machine and like the whole idea is like, can 107 00:05:01,513 --> 00:05:04,443 you do something useful even though the machine you made was designed 108 00:05:04,453 --> 00:05:07,213 to be perversely hard to use in a fun way for programmers, right? 109 00:05:07,493 --> 00:05:09,523 And so I thought that, I was like, this is what this is, right? 110 00:05:09,523 --> 00:05:11,983 Like, I have a, I have a Cassandra cluster over here that I'm throwing 111 00:05:11,983 --> 00:05:13,483 like terabytes in every day. 112 00:05:13,768 --> 00:05:14,618 you're giving me... 113 00:05:14,633 --> 00:05:16,431 The blockchain, what is this for? 114 00:05:17,035 --> 00:05:20,055 so I, I, I saw it as a database and then I dismissed it, right? 115 00:05:20,125 --> 00:05:22,065 Also Bitcoin price, this is 2011 or so. 116 00:05:22,385 --> 00:05:23,735 Bitcoin price is like less than a dollar. 117 00:05:24,045 --> 00:05:25,425 So I'm like, man, it's not, who cares? 118 00:05:25,756 --> 00:05:27,702 fast forward a couple of years, we sold the business. 119 00:05:27,732 --> 00:05:29,592 I made some money for the first time in my life. 120 00:05:29,892 --> 00:05:31,032 I bought some dumb things. 121 00:05:31,122 --> 00:05:35,172 And one of the dumb things I thought I might buy would be Bitcoin, 122 00:05:35,192 --> 00:05:36,472 because of course it's now 2013. 123 00:05:36,882 --> 00:05:37,662 I checked in on the price. 124 00:05:37,662 --> 00:05:39,642 It's like a hundred dollars or something, a coin. 125 00:05:40,087 --> 00:05:41,677 And I'm like, how the hell did that happen? 126 00:05:42,207 --> 00:05:45,577 Like in just two years, this thing that I thought was like an esoteric 127 00:05:45,847 --> 00:05:49,137 database tool worth less than a coin is now worth hundreds of dollars. 128 00:05:49,227 --> 00:05:53,107 Who is, oh, and then I, oh my God, if people are actually going to use this 129 00:05:53,107 --> 00:05:56,057 thing as money, if like they actually start doing that, then it might work. 130 00:05:56,567 --> 00:05:57,487 I should buy some, right? 131 00:05:57,487 --> 00:05:58,257 I'm already too late. 132 00:05:58,522 --> 00:06:00,682 You know, I might as well get in now and get a little bit. 133 00:06:00,852 --> 00:06:03,572 And, um, so that was the beginning for me, right? 134 00:06:03,572 --> 00:06:06,802 Like sort of feeling the FOMO, like oftentimes people feel, and then 135 00:06:06,802 --> 00:06:09,982 making a speculative investment, um, not understanding anything 136 00:06:09,992 --> 00:06:11,162 about how it actually worked. 137 00:06:11,182 --> 00:06:13,372 Just looking at that number going up and being like, yeah, all right, 138 00:06:13,402 --> 00:06:14,372 I'll throw some cash into this. 139 00:06:14,502 --> 00:06:18,512 I'll only put a little bit in, of course, um, wish and happy 140 00:06:18,512 --> 00:06:19,632 that I didn't put in more. 141 00:06:19,839 --> 00:06:21,339 and then I didn't think about it for a couple of years. 142 00:06:21,339 --> 00:06:23,279 Joe and I, uh, you know, got acquired. 143 00:06:23,279 --> 00:06:25,239 We went and worked for Acquire for a little bit. 144 00:06:26,189 --> 00:06:30,221 Quitting because it's terrible sometimes to work for large businesses and did 145 00:06:30,221 --> 00:06:35,078 nothing for a year and floated joe got married i built a house like we just 146 00:06:35,088 --> 00:06:38,448 did a bunch of life stuff and the whole time i'm just thinking what's the next 147 00:06:38,448 --> 00:06:43,121 business what do we want to do next and then ultimately around twenty fifteen 148 00:06:43,121 --> 00:06:44,881 twenty sixteen or so we're starting now. 149 00:06:45,041 --> 00:06:46,371 We're like, all right, let's start another business. 150 00:06:46,371 --> 00:06:47,671 Like we're doing the research. 151 00:06:47,671 --> 00:06:49,501 We're thinking about problem domains. 152 00:06:49,801 --> 00:06:53,571 We're supposed to be working on all these interesting applications of 153 00:06:53,571 --> 00:06:57,776 data and computer science to, you to, to construction or food industry, 154 00:06:57,776 --> 00:07:01,342 or, or this is our hypothesis about what we want to accomplish. 155 00:07:01,662 --> 00:07:03,492 And then neither of us did the work. 156 00:07:03,682 --> 00:07:07,982 We instead just read about Bitcoin and kind of were falling into the rabbit hole. 157 00:07:08,072 --> 00:07:09,932 And we didn't have that expression for it at the time. 158 00:07:09,952 --> 00:07:10,942 That's what was happening to us. 159 00:07:11,476 --> 00:07:13,716 And so at some point around 2016, I remember we just admitted it. 160 00:07:13,726 --> 00:07:17,296 We were like, I think we're really into Bitcoin and I think Bitcoin is 161 00:07:17,296 --> 00:07:18,936 gonna be a giant thing in the future. 162 00:07:19,326 --> 00:07:20,536 We should just start a Bitcoin company. 163 00:07:20,966 --> 00:07:24,846 And it felt a little crazy because, um, there weren't a lot of Bitcoin 164 00:07:24,846 --> 00:07:28,256 businesses and we felt a little bit late in some ways and a little bit early. 165 00:07:28,286 --> 00:07:30,996 Bitcoin's total market cap at that era is like six to eight billion 166 00:07:30,996 --> 00:07:32,246 dollars or something like this. 167 00:07:32,716 --> 00:07:33,236 So. 168 00:07:33,657 --> 00:07:34,532 yeah, early days. 169 00:07:34,582 --> 00:07:37,162 Um, but yeah, it was a long journey from being a scientist to kind of 170 00:07:37,162 --> 00:07:41,482 discovering and becoming a data person to eventually realizing that the 171 00:07:41,482 --> 00:07:45,322 blockchain, despite that it's got all these data like words, is actually 172 00:07:45,322 --> 00:07:48,957 really more about money and sort of building a business that makes sense. 173 00:07:49,477 --> 00:07:52,917 I think hopefully, one thing I'm proud of, we didn't approach Bitcoin at 174 00:07:52,917 --> 00:07:54,377 Unchained like it was a technology. 175 00:07:54,377 --> 00:07:55,977 We always approached it like it was a money. 176 00:07:56,407 --> 00:07:58,017 And so we built a financial services company. 177 00:07:58,027 --> 00:07:59,747 And so that's something that I think we got right. 178 00:08:00,241 --> 00:08:01,131 Fascinating. 179 00:08:02,111 --> 00:08:06,766 This is one thing that is always, like, baffled me that, that 180 00:08:07,046 --> 00:08:11,616 physicists and engineers, uh, seem to be like the, the early days 181 00:08:11,616 --> 00:08:15,196 of bitcoins are data scientists, physicists, and engineers mostly. 182 00:08:15,196 --> 00:08:15,476 Right. 183 00:08:15,741 --> 00:08:17,001 And crypto anarchists 184 00:08:17,316 --> 00:08:18,606 crypto anarchists, okay. 185 00:08:18,636 --> 00:08:22,336 Like, but yeah, the, the, the crypto anarchists are there as well, of 186 00:08:22,336 --> 00:08:23,606 course, as the cypherpunks, but, 187 00:08:23,801 --> 00:08:24,081 know. 188 00:08:24,656 --> 00:08:29,166 uh, it's only later, like in 2016, 17, that you get the safedins 189 00:08:29,256 --> 00:08:33,211 and, uh, the, the, the economics, uh, branch of it, really. 190 00:08:33,311 --> 00:08:37,451 So, so it seems like, like, these people, very few of them understand 191 00:08:37,451 --> 00:08:39,251 anything about Austrian economics. 192 00:08:39,301 --> 00:08:42,351 Uh, and as you said, you know, nothing about that. 193 00:08:42,351 --> 00:08:46,473 Like, how are your, knowledge level of Austrian economics these days? 194 00:08:46,473 --> 00:08:47,123 I guess it's, uh, 195 00:08:47,433 --> 00:08:48,433 I'd say low to mid. 196 00:08:49,136 --> 00:08:49,516 to mid. 197 00:08:49,776 --> 00:08:53,686 yeah, like I think, so truthfully, something that's been exciting for me 198 00:08:53,706 --> 00:08:56,876 starting Unchained and having to build a financial services business is I've 199 00:08:56,876 --> 00:09:02,681 just learned tremendously more about Money, economics, like the federal 200 00:09:03,071 --> 00:09:07,431 and governmental and non governmental apparatuses that like create and are 201 00:09:07,431 --> 00:09:11,261 responsible for the infrastructure of money, which is then so deeply connected 202 00:09:11,291 --> 00:09:12,561 to so much of the rest of the world. 203 00:09:12,561 --> 00:09:16,331 So I feel like I'm, I'm learning a tremendous amount, like by starting 204 00:09:16,331 --> 00:09:20,420 this business and, and that's been great, like Austrian economics as a 205 00:09:20,420 --> 00:09:23,800 particular like flavor of economics as distinct from, let's say, Keynesian 206 00:09:23,840 --> 00:09:26,968 or other approaches, like I'm on the outside of that discussion. 207 00:09:26,978 --> 00:09:30,928 I have nothing original or new to say, you know, and so I don't go wading into it 208 00:09:30,928 --> 00:09:32,768 and offer my opinion one way or the other. 209 00:09:32,768 --> 00:09:35,688 I tend to be a little bit timid about talking shit about things 210 00:09:35,688 --> 00:09:36,488 I don't really understand. 211 00:09:36,756 --> 00:09:39,559 I, and I, I would say honestly, this is something I, I often 212 00:09:39,559 --> 00:09:40,659 talk with Parker about this. 213 00:09:41,070 --> 00:09:43,912 Parker, who previously worked at Unchained for a long time and, you 214 00:09:43,912 --> 00:09:47,252 know, remains a close to the business and, and a close friend of mine. 215 00:09:47,252 --> 00:09:50,112 And, uh, I thought Parker had a completely different background 216 00:09:50,262 --> 00:09:51,432 when how he found Bitcoin. 217 00:09:51,432 --> 00:09:53,822 He's not a programmer or physics guy, anything like that. 218 00:09:53,832 --> 00:09:58,532 You know, he's, he's, uh, he deeply understands banking and macroeconomics 219 00:09:58,542 --> 00:10:00,552 and trading and all these kinds of things. 220 00:10:00,552 --> 00:10:04,292 And for him, the economic aspects of Bitcoin, and he, and I don't 221 00:10:04,292 --> 00:10:06,892 know, I imagine he might describe himself as an Austrian, I don't know. 222 00:10:07,232 --> 00:10:07,602 But like. 223 00:10:08,002 --> 00:10:09,622 Those, these are the things he's super knowledgeable about. 224 00:10:10,182 --> 00:10:10,402 Right. 225 00:10:10,402 --> 00:10:14,722 And I often looked to him and I'd be like, well, I think you could have made Bitcoin 226 00:10:14,762 --> 00:10:16,182 with a, you know, with tail emission. 227 00:10:16,182 --> 00:10:19,072 I think that would have worked like mechanically, like tell 228 00:10:19,072 --> 00:10:19,982 me why that's a bad idea. 229 00:10:20,092 --> 00:10:21,082 And then he would give me answers. 230 00:10:21,082 --> 00:10:21,932 He'd be like, Oh, this is why. 231 00:10:22,602 --> 00:10:24,262 And so I'm like, I don't know, man. 232 00:10:24,262 --> 00:10:25,872 Like, I'm not going to accept his word on it. 233 00:10:25,882 --> 00:10:27,512 But I, but I, I like his reasoning. 234 00:10:27,752 --> 00:10:28,912 It's a hypothesis. 235 00:10:28,912 --> 00:10:29,602 It's a, it's a theory. 236 00:10:29,602 --> 00:10:30,382 It makes sense. 237 00:10:30,572 --> 00:10:33,037 But then, you know, he would flip it on to me and be like, So why 238 00:10:33,037 --> 00:10:36,037 is it true that like this thing actually can't be like decrypt or 239 00:10:36,037 --> 00:10:37,237 like, how does that work in the code? 240 00:10:37,597 --> 00:10:40,117 You know, and I like, oh, that part I totally get, this is how that works. 241 00:10:40,327 --> 00:10:42,337 Like, that's why I have complete confidence in that aspect of how 242 00:10:42,337 --> 00:10:46,317 this system, so what I, what I, what I've loved about Bitcoin, for me 243 00:10:46,317 --> 00:10:49,557 personally as well as for like the community around it, is you cannot 244 00:10:49,557 --> 00:10:51,597 be like the master of all the fields. 245 00:10:51,627 --> 00:10:55,145 It's, impossible You come to it because of something that, that draws you in, 246 00:10:55,445 --> 00:10:59,535 uh, and I think, I think you're right for in the super early days, like you have 247 00:10:59,535 --> 00:11:02,495 to be one of a few different kinds of people, because there was no other way 248 00:11:02,495 --> 00:11:05,595 you were going to hear about Bitcoin, and there wasn't educational material about 249 00:11:05,595 --> 00:11:08,745 it for you to easily digest, so you had to kind of do the work to understand it 250 00:11:08,745 --> 00:11:12,765 yourself, and you're only going to do that if you had some in the background, right? 251 00:11:12,765 --> 00:11:18,010 For me, It wasn't the economics that drew me in, it was the technology, right, which 252 00:11:18,010 --> 00:11:21,650 is a sort of later on, I've realized it's not that important, um, and it's actually 253 00:11:21,660 --> 00:11:26,300 much more economics that drives everything in Bitcoin, but it was initially that that 254 00:11:26,300 --> 00:11:29,640 hooked me in, and also the whole energy thing, Bitcoin, physics, energy, time, 255 00:11:29,640 --> 00:11:31,470 that's a very sexy triangle of thoughts to 256 00:11:31,665 --> 00:11:32,035 It is. 257 00:11:32,907 --> 00:11:36,228 so like these kinds of things brought me in, um, and I think in those areas, 258 00:11:36,238 --> 00:11:40,118 I still feel strongest and I feel like strongest to talk about, well, what 259 00:11:40,118 --> 00:11:43,458 do I think about Bitcoin and energy or time and did it all these ideas. 260 00:11:43,828 --> 00:11:47,328 And I'm still a little bit relying on the rest of the community to represent, 261 00:11:47,460 --> 00:11:50,000 from the economic side, this is why Bitcoin makes the best argument. 262 00:11:50,010 --> 00:11:52,740 Like I sort of need them to, to talk about that part, you know? 263 00:11:53,890 --> 00:11:57,900 It reminds me of one of my father's favorite sayings, which was, it's 264 00:11:57,900 --> 00:12:03,030 better to be a complete idiot than to be a complete, an idiot in a specific 265 00:12:03,030 --> 00:12:05,170 field that only knows one thing. 266 00:12:06,710 --> 00:12:09,580 There's a Swedish expression, so I have a hard time translating it, 267 00:12:09,610 --> 00:12:13,387 but like, the thing was, yeah, it's better to know a little about a lot 268 00:12:13,387 --> 00:12:15,907 of stuff than to just specialize. 269 00:12:16,107 --> 00:12:19,487 And there's some truth to that, even though I believe in the division of 270 00:12:19,487 --> 00:12:24,220 labor as well, so you should, you should specialize, uh, but you should 271 00:12:24,220 --> 00:12:28,030 also don't trust and verify, so you should know a little about everything. 272 00:12:28,233 --> 00:12:32,263 the thing with the physicists and the engineers, the thing I find so fascinating 273 00:12:32,263 --> 00:12:40,271 is that physicists and engineers often get Austrian economics, um, more so than, than 274 00:12:40,281 --> 00:12:46,531 traditional economists, like in Keynesian, uh, whoever's read economics in school, 275 00:12:46,531 --> 00:12:50,851 they don't get it, but a physicist or an engineer knows what, what you can and 276 00:12:50,851 --> 00:12:54,391 what you cannot do with mathematics and what works and what, what doesn't work. 277 00:12:54,721 --> 00:12:58,511 And I think that's very closely related to economics, because you can pretty 278 00:12:58,511 --> 00:13:02,951 easily see when you, when you accept that valuations are subjective, it's. 279 00:13:03,191 --> 00:13:06,211 Kind of easy to draw the conclusion that you can't really do anything with 280 00:13:06,211 --> 00:13:12,240 mathematics and economics, like, except, you know, whatever a price signal says, 281 00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:17,300 and you can add up the cost of stuff, but you can't really predict the future 282 00:13:17,370 --> 00:13:21,830 using mathematics, all, all your models are destroyed, the type of thing, 283 00:13:21,840 --> 00:13:23,580 like, because it's all subjective. 284 00:13:24,129 --> 00:13:24,469 So, 285 00:13:24,932 --> 00:13:29,145 definitely, I think, um, people definitely talk about physics envy, you know, 286 00:13:29,145 --> 00:13:32,335 and coming from like microeconomics or other places where like there are these 287 00:13:32,335 --> 00:13:37,785 big equations and, and like, there's definitely a massive degree of skepticism 288 00:13:38,405 --> 00:13:42,835 from actual physicists about Like work that looks a little too mathematical, 289 00:13:42,835 --> 00:13:47,205 but that doesn't actually have like natural laws or like hard things that 290 00:13:47,205 --> 00:13:50,275 we've experimentally measured that we can like, you know, build all that 291 00:13:50,275 --> 00:13:51,715 mathematics and drape it all over. 292 00:13:51,715 --> 00:13:51,995 Right? 293 00:13:52,025 --> 00:13:54,945 Because, um, it definitely makes people a little nervous. 294 00:13:55,505 --> 00:13:58,245 Are you saying that this equation on my t shirt here is wrong? 295 00:13:59,015 --> 00:13:59,395 Well, 296 00:13:59,415 --> 00:13:59,645 From 297 00:13:59,645 --> 00:13:59,945 a physics perspective? 298 00:13:59,945 --> 00:13:59,965 Yeah, 299 00:14:00,775 --> 00:14:02,455 I think we can accept metaphor, right? 300 00:14:02,455 --> 00:14:05,175 But I think the point is that it's, it's not meant to be metaphorical, right? 301 00:14:05,175 --> 00:14:08,315 Those, those, those equations are meant to be real equations, right? 302 00:14:08,355 --> 00:14:08,625 That 303 00:14:08,765 --> 00:14:09,775 physics they are, yeah. 304 00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:13,130 I'm talking about even in folks who try to physicize economics, right? 305 00:14:13,320 --> 00:14:15,010 They're not saying it's just a metaphor. 306 00:14:15,010 --> 00:14:16,360 It's not just a T shirt slogan. 307 00:14:16,380 --> 00:14:19,920 It's supposedly a model for the real world that we should then, in fact, 308 00:14:19,920 --> 00:14:21,180 make policy decisions on, right? 309 00:14:21,180 --> 00:14:22,780 So it's meant to be very real. 310 00:14:23,508 --> 00:14:25,368 And I don't think, oftentimes, I don't think it is. 311 00:14:25,368 --> 00:14:25,738 Yes. 312 00:14:25,778 --> 00:14:28,339 And I think I think physicists often see that. 313 00:14:28,349 --> 00:14:32,589 There's, um, I'll give you a quick story of, uh, so my graduate school advisor, 314 00:14:32,942 --> 00:14:37,422 a physicist, like, works nothing, like, works, um, in a lot of broad areas, 315 00:14:37,422 --> 00:14:40,102 and part of the reason I think I found myself studying all these crazy systems 316 00:14:40,102 --> 00:14:41,002 is because he was just very naive. 317 00:14:41,012 --> 00:14:44,192 He has broad ranging interests and encouraged me to do so, and when I 318 00:14:44,192 --> 00:14:46,202 talk to him about Bitcoin, because of course, you know, I'm trying to orange 319 00:14:46,202 --> 00:14:49,542 pill everybody in my life, and I say, you know, Bitcoin, economics, energy, 320 00:14:49,542 --> 00:14:53,303 da da da, turns out, like, he's been following another sort of, physics person 321 00:14:53,313 --> 00:14:57,903 who kind of went into economics and really talked about energy, and, like, 322 00:14:58,473 --> 00:15:00,793 in some sense, right, like, if you think about Democracy 모들의 경험을 이야기를 하셨으면 좋겠다. 323 00:15:01,603 --> 00:15:05,083 Whole human economies is just, you know, statistical systems. 324 00:15:05,253 --> 00:15:08,683 Shouldn't they obey things like the law of large numbers, and the equal 325 00:15:08,683 --> 00:15:12,313 partition, like, theorem, and like all these statistical mechanics ideas? 326 00:15:12,343 --> 00:15:17,163 Um, it's a very different approach to bringing math into economics than... 327 00:15:17,583 --> 00:15:20,632 Um, perhaps, traditional economists might have done, like, you know, for example, 328 00:15:20,632 --> 00:15:24,102 he has interesting theorems, like, can you kind of figure out, based on the 329 00:15:24,102 --> 00:15:27,818 distribution of wealth or something like that, uh, what kind of, whether the 330 00:15:27,818 --> 00:15:29,638 system is in equilibrium or not, right? 331 00:15:29,638 --> 00:15:32,418 Like, the way that physicists might approach, I don't know, a box of gas 332 00:15:32,418 --> 00:15:33,638 in an oven or something like this. 333 00:15:34,008 --> 00:15:36,658 Um, it's pretty interesting stuff, but I think, uh, At least according to my 334 00:15:36,658 --> 00:15:40,388 advisor, and I later met with this, with this guy, his name is Viktor Yakubenko, 335 00:15:40,518 --> 00:15:42,998 he does a lot of interesting work, so I actually wound up meeting with him and 336 00:15:42,998 --> 00:15:45,178 talking with him a whole bunch about Bitcoin, I gave a presentation to his 337 00:15:45,178 --> 00:15:48,198 research group at the University of Maryland, about like why Bitcoin is 338 00:15:48,198 --> 00:15:50,828 super, should be super interesting for people that think the way that he does, 339 00:15:51,333 --> 00:15:54,673 But according to him, he's like often struggled bringing deep concepts of 340 00:15:54,693 --> 00:15:59,113 energy into like, you know, macroeconomic discourse and, and sort of saying, Hey, 341 00:15:59,123 --> 00:16:02,463 no, you really need to like, our entire worldview as economists needs to be 342 00:16:02,463 --> 00:16:06,343 built around the notion of energy being scarce, and thinking about the economy as 343 00:16:06,363 --> 00:16:08,173 a machine that like moves energy around. 344 00:16:08,173 --> 00:16:10,403 And that's not like, I think, the overwhelming way that 345 00:16:10,403 --> 00:16:11,833 economists approach their field. 346 00:16:11,893 --> 00:16:15,483 But it's a really interesting, I think, way, at least to someone like me, who 347 00:16:15,483 --> 00:16:17,573 again, is a physicist and a Bitcoiner. 348 00:16:17,603 --> 00:16:20,393 I'm like, yeah, that makes more sense than a lot of the other stuff I hear. 349 00:16:20,393 --> 00:16:21,063 So I don't know. 350 00:16:22,063 --> 00:16:27,773 I would say it's a dangerous path though, uh, like if, if an idea like that gets 351 00:16:27,953 --> 00:16:32,873 the attention of some wannabe central planner, that it's a good, uh, you know, 352 00:16:33,333 --> 00:16:39,681 hierarchy ladder climber, then it may be tested on real humans and that's always 353 00:16:39,701 --> 00:16:45,801 a bad idea in economics to, to, to try to, you know, supervise an economy. 354 00:16:46,299 --> 00:16:52,232 Yeah, so, um, Bitcoin is often said to be backed by energy and by that 355 00:16:52,232 --> 00:16:57,552 people mean that the, the, the mining computers, um, sacrifice energy in 356 00:16:57,552 --> 00:17:02,122 order to secure the network and find the next block and thereby be paid 357 00:17:02,122 --> 00:17:04,102 in Bitcoin for doing so by the users. 358 00:17:04,102 --> 00:17:04,392 Right? 359 00:17:04,842 --> 00:17:10,940 So, my latest stick, if you will, or stick, if it's stick or stick, 360 00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:13,220 No, I think it's shtick, shtick, you got it right. 361 00:17:13,430 --> 00:17:13,670 right? 362 00:17:13,980 --> 00:17:18,215 Uh, it's, it's not backed by energy, it's backed by human action because 363 00:17:18,265 --> 00:17:24,486 behind all those, um, ASICs is always, a human actor choosing to buy them and 364 00:17:24,486 --> 00:17:27,866 choosing to run the software and choosing to plug them in and do the thing. 365 00:17:28,211 --> 00:17:32,151 so everything in Bitcoin requires a human being to act. 366 00:17:32,561 --> 00:17:34,161 It does nothing by itself. 367 00:17:34,161 --> 00:17:39,705 It still needs human beings acting on their, acting on incentives to function. 368 00:17:40,395 --> 00:17:46,885 And the funny thing is, when you really boil that idea down to what it actually 369 00:17:46,885 --> 00:17:51,920 means, it's like, uh, It's just an agreement on a fixed set of rules, and 370 00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:58,950 the reason we agree on these rules is that these rules, we see, by understanding 371 00:17:58,950 --> 00:18:03,850 the system, we can tell that these rules are more expensive to try to cheat 372 00:18:03,980 --> 00:18:08,760 than to follow, that if we just follow the rules, it's more profitable for us 373 00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:14,104 than to try to cheat them, if we do, we can get this finite number worth. 374 00:18:14,419 --> 00:18:19,109 Uh, which you can divide everything by, uh, and you get into this wonderful 375 00:18:19,109 --> 00:18:22,599 world of hyperbitcoinization, at least in the back of your head, when you 376 00:18:22,599 --> 00:18:24,459 imagine what the future might hold. 377 00:18:24,499 --> 00:18:26,859 And, and then you think, holy shit. 378 00:18:26,909 --> 00:18:28,189 And then you just follow along. 379 00:18:28,209 --> 00:18:31,999 And if you think about all the, all the machines and all the physics 380 00:18:32,289 --> 00:18:36,399 that are involved in Bitcoin and all the mathematics, all of that is just 381 00:18:36,839 --> 00:18:38,839 extensions of our minds, really. 382 00:18:39,156 --> 00:18:44,856 all the ASICs are doing are, Speeding up the rate of calculation that we 383 00:18:44,856 --> 00:18:50,022 can do with our heads, because running the code is just solving the equation 384 00:18:50,412 --> 00:18:54,102 and doing a hash, like you might as well do it by hand, it will take you 385 00:18:54,102 --> 00:18:57,932 a lot more time and it won't be very efficient, but at the end of the 386 00:18:57,932 --> 00:18:59,942 day, the ASIC is just a fancy abacus. 387 00:19:00,727 --> 00:19:04,957 Uh, so, so that's, that's a lot of what I talk about, uh, these days and how 388 00:19:05,157 --> 00:19:08,997 everything in Bitcoin is, it's just information, which, which means that it's, 389 00:19:09,307 --> 00:19:14,717 it's just us and all the computers used in it are just tools to make us better. 390 00:19:15,159 --> 00:19:20,069 but Bitcoin itself, it's not like other things on computers, uh, which 391 00:19:20,069 --> 00:19:24,699 may or may not be us, but Bitcoin is definitely us because it's us agreeing 392 00:19:24,709 --> 00:19:26,919 on a fixed set of rules and it's. 393 00:19:27,204 --> 00:19:28,504 Totally voluntary. 394 00:19:28,534 --> 00:19:31,904 So Bitcoin is the Bitcoiners, the way I see it. 395 00:19:31,934 --> 00:19:33,034 But what do you say to that? 396 00:19:34,124 --> 00:19:37,234 I think, this is coming back to maybe your prior question around being an Austrian 397 00:19:37,234 --> 00:19:40,024 or, or knowing much about Austrian economics, like, I think some of the 398 00:19:40,024 --> 00:19:43,754 language around human action and this kind of stuff is, it, that, I'm, I'm not 399 00:19:43,754 --> 00:19:46,904 trying to disagree or say it's wrong or anything, I, I think, I think I understand 400 00:19:46,904 --> 00:19:49,424 those words and the way you mean them, it sort of makes sense to me, but the 401 00:19:49,444 --> 00:19:54,249 language that I choose to use to describe, I think, the same idea is it's just Right. 402 00:19:54,289 --> 00:19:57,699 And I don't believe that Bitcoin is made of energy, even though I think 403 00:19:57,699 --> 00:20:01,449 I've said things like that, like, you know, either earlier in my life or 404 00:20:01,449 --> 00:20:04,759 while drinking or whatever, it's, it's a poetic, it's a poetic way to think 405 00:20:04,794 --> 00:20:06,564 Digital energy, you know, yeah. 406 00:20:06,579 --> 00:20:08,839 yeah, it's much like, it's much like your, do you hear this slogan? 407 00:20:08,839 --> 00:20:10,129 It's a little bit of a metaphor, right? 408 00:20:10,129 --> 00:20:13,229 Like, um, I think if I want to be more precise, I would say 409 00:20:13,229 --> 00:20:15,709 that Bitcoin is sold for energy. 410 00:20:16,524 --> 00:20:18,954 And that doesn't mean it is energy, right? 411 00:20:18,954 --> 00:20:20,724 That's, that's a very different statement. 412 00:20:20,724 --> 00:20:23,744 Just because something is exchanged for something doesn't make it that thing. 413 00:20:24,174 --> 00:20:27,234 And so I think Bitcoin is a market in which we exchange energy for 414 00:20:28,044 --> 00:20:31,004 Oh, you mean it's bought, it's bought for energy, right? 415 00:20:32,004 --> 00:20:32,194 Bitcoin. 416 00:20:32,224 --> 00:20:34,684 Yeah, and of course an exchange can be looked at as a buy or a 417 00:20:34,684 --> 00:20:36,144 sell depending on which asset you 418 00:20:36,164 --> 00:20:36,524 Yeah, yeah. 419 00:20:36,524 --> 00:20:39,534 But I mean, I mean, the process of mining is really buying Bitcoins 420 00:20:39,944 --> 00:20:44,554 for energy, in a way, since you sacrifice energy to get the Bitcoin. 421 00:20:45,104 --> 00:20:47,784 Yeah, it's from the miner's perspective, I would say that you are 422 00:20:47,794 --> 00:20:49,574 buying the Bitcoin with this energy. 423 00:20:49,624 --> 00:20:51,874 And I would say from the network's perspective, they are selling 424 00:20:51,884 --> 00:20:53,234 the Bitcoin for that energy. 425 00:20:54,304 --> 00:20:54,714 Yeah. 426 00:20:54,824 --> 00:21:00,124 Uh, uh, which implies the, the somewhat vulgar word, word 427 00:21:00,224 --> 00:21:01,824 monetary energy, which is... 428 00:21:02,094 --> 00:21:06,364 It's like this cross between physics and praxeology that can't 429 00:21:06,374 --> 00:21:07,994 really, they don't really mix. 430 00:21:08,579 --> 00:21:09,849 Yeah, it's, it's, it's a metaphor. 431 00:21:09,999 --> 00:21:10,689 And that's, that's fine. 432 00:21:11,229 --> 00:21:11,379 Yeah. 433 00:21:11,379 --> 00:21:12,939 Like, but that's, that's, that's not a real thing. 434 00:21:12,939 --> 00:21:14,489 Like it's just, there's actual energy. 435 00:21:14,709 --> 00:21:18,129 I mean, real energy is, is used to make, and if you will, if you would like the 436 00:21:18,129 --> 00:21:21,509 human choices that go into that decision, like someone has to make the choice to 437 00:21:21,509 --> 00:21:23,019 use that energy to create hash rate. 438 00:21:23,029 --> 00:21:24,729 And then they sell that hash rate for Bitcoin. 439 00:21:25,449 --> 00:21:29,719 And so I think sometimes I think about like, Bitcoin uses energy that like, 440 00:21:29,839 --> 00:21:31,739 it doesn't really even use energy. 441 00:21:31,894 --> 00:21:34,194 people use energy to buy Bitcoin. 442 00:21:34,634 --> 00:21:39,081 And That's just a market phenomenon, and it's so much of what we find compelling 443 00:21:39,091 --> 00:21:42,831 about Bitcoin, in my view, and so many of its strengths, and I think perhaps 444 00:21:42,831 --> 00:21:46,441 you would agree with this, this corollary to your earlier statement, is like, 445 00:21:46,441 --> 00:21:50,061 because of the freedom, or the human action, or in my words, the market 446 00:21:50,061 --> 00:21:53,321 that underlies Bitcoin, that's really what creates the properties we want. 447 00:21:53,731 --> 00:21:58,551 So the uncensorability, the robustness, the scalability, like, these all come 448 00:21:58,551 --> 00:22:02,151 from the fact that, like, someone is being paid, To provide this service, 449 00:22:02,671 --> 00:22:06,721 and the mechanism of paying them is robust, and hard to stop, and so the 450 00:22:06,721 --> 00:22:11,301 market is just hard to stop, and grows tremendously quickly, has no barriers 451 00:22:11,301 --> 00:22:16,738 to entry, no regulations, other than the very, simple, clear regulations 452 00:22:16,738 --> 00:22:18,148 that exist in the code base, right? 453 00:22:18,188 --> 00:22:21,662 Those are part of the contract, if you like, of the market, and how it must work. 454 00:22:21,662 --> 00:22:21,676 Thank you. 455 00:22:21,817 --> 00:22:22,997 um, build and settle goods. 456 00:22:23,297 --> 00:22:26,307 So like there are regulations, they're just not regulations that are like, 457 00:22:26,847 --> 00:22:29,877 you know, by fiat in a parliamentary or legislative machine, right? 458 00:22:29,877 --> 00:22:32,667 They're just sitting there in the code, and everyone has these really strong 459 00:22:32,667 --> 00:22:37,247 protections, and the barriers to entry are extremely low, and the rewards are real, 460 00:22:37,447 --> 00:22:42,027 and so It grows tremendously quickly, and that's an amazing thing, and I think 461 00:22:42,037 --> 00:22:46,637 that I often, like my shtick, if you like, right now is, um, we need to stop 462 00:22:46,637 --> 00:22:50,397 thinking about blockchains and technology and anything that Drew, you know, found 463 00:22:50,397 --> 00:22:51,997 interesting in 2011 about Bitcoin. 464 00:22:52,667 --> 00:22:53,377 Like, that's not the point. 465 00:22:53,797 --> 00:22:56,407 Like, we need to think about the economic incentives and the markets, 466 00:22:56,437 --> 00:23:00,427 and we need to think, how do we build markets to do other things that are as 467 00:23:00,427 --> 00:23:04,688 robust as the market we have at layer one, that allows Bitcoin to operate. 468 00:23:05,223 --> 00:23:08,093 And of course, that market is going to have to use Bitcoin because the strength 469 00:23:08,093 --> 00:23:11,003 of the currency is going to help define the strength of those incentives. 470 00:23:11,473 --> 00:23:15,783 And for me, a lot of the discourse that Bitcoiners and altcoiners are 471 00:23:15,783 --> 00:23:19,083 sort of having in between them is like they're talking across purposes, right? 472 00:23:19,083 --> 00:23:22,693 Like, altcoiners have decided the blockchain is the thing that matters 473 00:23:22,693 --> 00:23:25,133 and they want to invest in the technology of the blockchain and make 474 00:23:25,183 --> 00:23:27,163 it more capable and da da da da da. 475 00:23:27,733 --> 00:23:30,063 And of course, leads to centralization because they're not really 476 00:23:30,073 --> 00:23:31,243 thinking about it as a market. 477 00:23:31,623 --> 00:23:32,533 Whereas Bitcoiners... 478 00:23:33,168 --> 00:23:36,588 I hope are more thinking about it as a market because, frankly, their 479 00:23:36,588 --> 00:23:40,078 blockchain is not a very powerful one from a computing perspective. 480 00:23:40,278 --> 00:23:42,678 A bitcoin blockchain can't do certain things that other 481 00:23:42,678 --> 00:23:43,868 people's blockchains can. 482 00:23:44,368 --> 00:23:47,098 And so we're actually protecting ourselves from a whole swath of bad 483 00:23:47,098 --> 00:23:51,343 ideas, and we're forced into, therefore, thinking about Things like Layer 2, 484 00:23:51,593 --> 00:23:54,243 right, which are separate, they're not a block, like Lightning is not a 485 00:23:54,243 --> 00:23:58,613 blockchain in any way, it's just a peer to peer application that offers market 486 00:23:58,623 --> 00:24:01,983 incentives to use Bitcoin to solve certain problems for other Bitcoiners. 487 00:24:02,273 --> 00:24:05,373 That's a very healthy way, I think, to engineer solutions 488 00:24:05,373 --> 00:24:06,823 to problems, um, using Bitcoin. 489 00:24:07,743 --> 00:24:09,683 Yes, yes, we agree completely. 490 00:24:09,983 --> 00:24:13,863 And this is also why we use the, we don't use the term altcoins 491 00:24:13,863 --> 00:24:15,143 here on the Freedom Footprint show. 492 00:24:15,143 --> 00:24:20,473 We, we use the term, uh, what we in Spain would call monedas de mierda or something. 493 00:24:20,638 --> 00:24:21,218 Uh huh. 494 00:24:21,338 --> 00:24:21,748 Uh huh. 495 00:24:21,808 --> 00:24:22,338 Shitcoins. 496 00:24:22,508 --> 00:24:22,968 Got you. 497 00:24:23,143 --> 00:24:23,793 exactly. 498 00:24:24,093 --> 00:24:26,653 So, um, that's the preferable term here. 499 00:24:27,033 --> 00:24:31,143 All right, from one thing to another, um, tell us about Unchained Capital. 500 00:24:31,183 --> 00:24:33,893 I mean, uh, there's a lot of, a lot of things going on. 501 00:24:34,803 --> 00:24:38,903 Just recently started collaborating with the, uh, the Bitcoin 502 00:24:38,903 --> 00:24:40,333 advisor in Australia, right? 503 00:24:41,318 --> 00:24:41,918 Yes. 504 00:24:42,148 --> 00:24:42,948 Yes, we did. 505 00:24:43,018 --> 00:24:45,608 Yeah, I think a little bit more publicly and formally, but yeah, it's been 506 00:24:45,608 --> 00:24:47,678 a long relationship for many years. 507 00:24:47,949 --> 00:24:52,249 I think just in general, this concept of working with advisors is something that 508 00:24:52,249 --> 00:24:53,939 is, that is really interesting to me. 509 00:24:54,179 --> 00:24:58,749 Um, I've often spoken personally that, You know, I think I have an incredible 510 00:24:58,779 --> 00:25:01,939 financial advisor, but they really don't like Bitcoin, or they don't 511 00:25:01,939 --> 00:25:05,819 get it, or they think I'm too heavily invested in Bitcoin, and that's not a 512 00:25:05,819 --> 00:25:07,529 perspective that really resonates with me. 513 00:25:07,859 --> 00:25:10,899 Um, I think I'm the right, I think I'm the right amount of invested in 514 00:25:10,899 --> 00:25:13,849 Bitcoin, which is, I have about as few dollars as I can tolerate having. 515 00:25:13,909 --> 00:25:14,959 That's my, that's my life. 516 00:25:15,518 --> 00:25:16,008 and... 517 00:25:16,618 --> 00:25:22,112 I think my advisor performing their fiduciary duty towards me, and they 518 00:25:22,112 --> 00:25:25,162 don't agree with some of my worldview around this stuff, they kind of think 519 00:25:25,162 --> 00:25:28,262 I'm making a mistake, and they're like always trying to steer me towards, I 520 00:25:28,272 --> 00:25:31,312 think you should sell some bitcoin, you have a lot of wealth locked up in 521 00:25:31,312 --> 00:25:35,097 bitcoin and an unchained capital, which is actually just a More Bitcoin, right? 522 00:25:35,147 --> 00:25:39,567 Um, so like, sell some of that, go buy ETFs and hold on to those, and that's 523 00:25:39,577 --> 00:25:43,737 very good advice, like, like I think, um, on some level, and I think my advisor 524 00:25:43,737 --> 00:25:47,207 has to give me that advice, but it's not advice that, that, that I'm gonna 525 00:25:47,257 --> 00:25:49,517 ever take, and so there's a, there's a 526 00:25:49,637 --> 00:25:51,407 So, so it's not good advice then. 527 00:25:51,662 --> 00:25:53,492 Well, I mean, I guess what's good in this case, right? 528 00:25:53,532 --> 00:25:56,422 It's like, depending on if it turns out he's right, it's good. 529 00:25:56,432 --> 00:25:57,642 It's going to be good advice, right? 530 00:25:57,642 --> 00:25:58,312 I should have done that. 531 00:25:58,312 --> 00:26:01,702 But if it turns out I'm right, then of course, it's bad advice on a level, right? 532 00:26:02,262 --> 00:26:04,402 There's also knowing oneself and so on. 533 00:26:04,402 --> 00:26:08,882 So it's like, I've come to accept that there's a big gap a lot of times between 534 00:26:08,912 --> 00:26:13,777 a person who is like, gone into Bitcoin and then and gone far and then any 535 00:26:13,777 --> 00:26:15,137 traditional form of financial advice. 536 00:26:15,287 --> 00:26:18,627 But at the same time, like I really value my financial advice. 537 00:26:18,657 --> 00:26:21,267 They solve a lot of problems for me and like many of the areas 538 00:26:21,267 --> 00:26:23,377 of my life that aren't directly sitting related to Bitcoin. 539 00:26:23,607 --> 00:26:25,987 Um, so I think it's generically very useful. 540 00:26:26,317 --> 00:26:28,957 Person to have, not, not everybody needs one, you know, like I think 541 00:26:29,027 --> 00:26:32,077 I'll speak for Joe when we both sold our business and we made some money. 542 00:26:32,217 --> 00:26:33,657 I immediately went and got a financial advisor. 543 00:26:33,657 --> 00:26:36,767 Joe immediately started reading S1s and managing his own investments, right? 544 00:26:36,797 --> 00:26:38,797 And it's like, I'm not going to do that. 545 00:26:39,077 --> 00:26:41,807 So like I hired an investor, an advisor, right? 546 00:26:41,807 --> 00:26:43,217 So different strokes, different people. 547 00:26:43,217 --> 00:26:43,597 I get it. 548 00:26:43,607 --> 00:26:45,457 Like not everybody needs it, but I need it. 549 00:26:45,527 --> 00:26:48,767 Like I'm not great with money and I need a person to tell me what to do 550 00:26:48,767 --> 00:26:50,107 sometimes and give me good advice. 551 00:26:50,947 --> 00:26:52,827 But when that person has a completely different worldview 552 00:26:52,857 --> 00:26:56,407 about what's happening with money, suddenly it becomes hard again. 553 00:26:56,407 --> 00:26:56,787 Right? 554 00:26:57,087 --> 00:27:01,917 And so I, I love the idea that there exists now a brave population of 555 00:27:01,927 --> 00:27:05,412 financial advisors who are willing to like, experience ridicule, take 556 00:27:05,422 --> 00:27:08,932 on personal risk, perhaps like be one of the first people in their 557 00:27:08,992 --> 00:27:12,452 country or their jurisdiction talking about how actually no, my fiduciary 558 00:27:12,452 --> 00:27:15,752 responsibility is to tell you to buy Bitcoin in some appropriate amount. 559 00:27:16,032 --> 00:27:17,922 To help you do that securely, right? 560 00:27:17,922 --> 00:27:20,722 To help you learn about keys, to help you think about inheritance. 561 00:27:20,732 --> 00:27:22,002 This is a new asset class. 562 00:27:22,002 --> 00:27:26,502 And, um, I've come to believe truthfully that, you know, I think 563 00:27:26,502 --> 00:27:30,642 a financial advisor has a investment management mandate typically 564 00:27:30,642 --> 00:27:32,012 when they are managing dollars. 565 00:27:32,582 --> 00:27:34,782 They're part of what they have to do is they have to grow those dollars. 566 00:27:34,782 --> 00:27:38,322 That's like part of what you expect from, from them in a world that's 567 00:27:38,392 --> 00:27:42,232 ever in like sort of hyperbitcoinizing like that, that requirement, 568 00:27:42,252 --> 00:27:43,622 that mandate is, is minimized. 569 00:27:43,836 --> 00:27:45,776 if they're helping you manage your Bitcoin, right? 570 00:27:45,776 --> 00:27:47,326 Like they're not, they don't need to invest it. 571 00:27:47,336 --> 00:27:48,076 It's going to grow. 572 00:27:48,206 --> 00:27:49,066 It's, it's deflationary. 573 00:27:49,296 --> 00:27:51,066 Like that's, uh, they don't need to do that work. 574 00:27:51,326 --> 00:27:53,226 So, in a sense, like, what replaces that work? 575 00:27:53,406 --> 00:27:55,296 And I think there's a lot to replace it. 576 00:27:55,516 --> 00:27:58,846 Like, there's a lot of things to learn now about key management and 577 00:27:59,156 --> 00:28:03,756 sort of inheritance and security and all sorts of other aspects of Bitcoin 578 00:28:03,766 --> 00:28:07,329 ownership that are totally unique and different than, Traditional financial 579 00:28:07,329 --> 00:28:08,539 planning and investment management. 580 00:28:08,799 --> 00:28:11,079 But I do think that these are the remit of advisors. 581 00:28:11,409 --> 00:28:16,229 And so I'm seeing with our partnership in Australia and hopefully more 582 00:28:16,669 --> 00:28:19,809 coming partnerships with other advisors and other firms, like people 583 00:28:19,809 --> 00:28:21,589 who are taking on that challenge. 584 00:28:21,759 --> 00:28:24,649 They're saying, okay, it's not just my job to tell you that Bitcoin 585 00:28:24,649 --> 00:28:27,769 is good or educate you about it or help you decide on an allocation. 586 00:28:27,769 --> 00:28:29,039 It's actually, I have to go further. 587 00:28:29,159 --> 00:28:31,929 I can't just say, go buy 10 percent of your net worth in Bitcoin 588 00:28:31,929 --> 00:28:32,999 and let you go use Coinbase. 589 00:28:33,697 --> 00:28:36,527 I need to help you actually come up with a real solution. 590 00:28:36,527 --> 00:28:38,207 So are you thinking about self custody? 591 00:28:38,347 --> 00:28:40,427 Maybe collaborative custody is the right model for you. 592 00:28:40,457 --> 00:28:44,047 Maybe I need to hold a key as your advisor in a quorum that 593 00:28:44,057 --> 00:28:45,207 you also still have control. 594 00:28:45,207 --> 00:28:47,277 Like, there are lots of interesting structures right 595 00:28:47,277 --> 00:28:48,867 there that get to be created. 596 00:28:48,867 --> 00:28:52,057 And I think the best advisors are already thinking about those issues. 597 00:28:52,592 --> 00:28:57,922 Yes, and, and, you know, there's no, uh, one size fits all solution for this. 598 00:28:58,292 --> 00:29:02,042 Every, every Bitcoiner needs their own solution to all of these problems, really. 599 00:29:02,042 --> 00:29:05,782 It's so, so personal, since it's just information at the end of the day. 600 00:29:05,782 --> 00:29:08,522 It's, it becomes part of you, and it's very, very personal. 601 00:29:08,742 --> 00:29:10,042 And I always joke around with... 602 00:29:10,122 --> 00:29:13,942 Peter Dunnworth, the Bitcoin advisor about these things and say, I tell him 603 00:29:13,942 --> 00:29:17,612 that, like, you have the easiest job in the world for the next hundred years. 604 00:29:17,742 --> 00:29:21,772 Like all you need to tell your customers is buy as much Bitcoin as you can. 605 00:29:21,782 --> 00:29:26,402 Like, and he, he has this thesis that as long as you have one Satoshi more 606 00:29:26,422 --> 00:29:28,792 every year, you're a total winner. 607 00:29:28,842 --> 00:29:33,362 Like there's no way you can lose if you have one Satoshi more this 608 00:29:33,362 --> 00:29:34,782 year than what you had last year. 609 00:29:34,812 --> 00:29:35,872 And there's something to that. 610 00:29:36,532 --> 00:29:40,072 You know, that's an interesting framing, but I think you know this, but just to say 611 00:29:40,072 --> 00:29:42,172 it out loud, like, it is not an easy job. 612 00:29:42,182 --> 00:29:45,432 It is not easy to be one of the first people in your industry to 613 00:29:45,472 --> 00:29:47,222 come out and say, Bitcoin is good. 614 00:29:47,222 --> 00:29:47,972 Like, trust me. 615 00:29:48,202 --> 00:29:51,772 Hey, all regulators come and look at me and, you know, inspect every 616 00:29:51,772 --> 00:29:54,532 little thing that I do, because you think I'm somehow now doing something 617 00:29:54,542 --> 00:29:56,042 untoward with my clients, right? 618 00:29:56,042 --> 00:29:59,122 Like, there's a lot of costs to deciding to be public about 619 00:29:59,122 --> 00:30:00,522 supporting Bitcoin in that industry. 620 00:30:01,247 --> 00:30:05,747 Absolutely you have, you have to go to El Salvador to be a, a, a 621 00:30:05,747 --> 00:30:07,607 financial advisor properly these 622 00:30:07,682 --> 00:30:10,462 Or, or you, or you got to be brave and you got to be willing to do it on 623 00:30:10,462 --> 00:30:13,042 your own and you don't get a lot of the protections of a massive firm that 624 00:30:13,052 --> 00:30:15,132 is too timid to endorse your strategy. 625 00:30:15,162 --> 00:30:15,442 Yeah, 626 00:30:16,458 --> 00:30:17,208 ahead of the curb, 627 00:30:17,983 --> 00:30:18,563 Exactly. 628 00:30:19,588 --> 00:30:21,688 So, so what else is going on at the on chain? 629 00:30:21,688 --> 00:30:23,758 What, what are you working with at the moment? 630 00:30:24,503 --> 00:30:28,403 So, uh, the advisory is just, you know, one of the leaf nodes of a, of a big tree 631 00:30:28,403 --> 00:30:29,913 of value that we're trying to create here. 632 00:30:29,943 --> 00:30:32,363 You know, I feel like the core, the trunk of that is just the 633 00:30:32,363 --> 00:30:33,923 concept of collaborative custody. 634 00:30:34,103 --> 00:30:37,173 You know, something that we came to very, very early in our business's history. 635 00:30:37,583 --> 00:30:40,983 Just, there's multisig, which is, you know, built in a Bitcoin. 636 00:30:40,983 --> 00:30:44,063 Anybody can use multisig through free tools and wallets, some of 637 00:30:44,063 --> 00:30:45,493 which we've created, like Caravan. 638 00:30:45,923 --> 00:30:49,373 But there's collaborative custody, which is the notion that multiple parties 639 00:30:49,573 --> 00:30:51,223 should be holding those multiple keys. 640 00:30:51,553 --> 00:30:55,853 And come up as you say with a bespoke like model that fits the 641 00:30:55,853 --> 00:30:59,650 situation and sometimes different quorum sizes, different, allocation 642 00:30:59,650 --> 00:31:03,230 of keys to different parties that is appropriate or not appropriate 643 00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:04,630 depending on the person and the product. 644 00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:09,720 And so I think the way to think about Unchained is we couple the custodial 645 00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:11,440 solution to the financial product. 646 00:31:12,005 --> 00:31:13,885 And we don't agree that they should be separate. 647 00:31:13,885 --> 00:31:16,975 We think they have to be together in this early stage of, um, 648 00:31:17,035 --> 00:31:18,175 you know, Bitcoin adoption. 649 00:31:18,525 --> 00:31:21,535 And so when you get a vault at Unchained, it's a multi sig vault. 650 00:31:21,535 --> 00:31:22,325 It's two of three. 651 00:31:22,755 --> 00:31:26,175 And because of collaborative custody, you as the vault owner, 652 00:31:26,175 --> 00:31:28,575 the depositor, the funds holder, you're going to have two keys. 653 00:31:28,775 --> 00:31:30,095 And Unchained's going to have the third. 654 00:31:30,535 --> 00:31:32,455 So this makes you sovereign, right? 655 00:31:32,455 --> 00:31:33,975 Like, you have two out of the three keys. 656 00:31:33,975 --> 00:31:34,965 Two keys are necessary. 657 00:31:35,205 --> 00:31:36,535 You can move the funds at any time. 658 00:31:36,935 --> 00:31:40,525 If you lose a key, Then you can always work with Unchained and now 659 00:31:40,525 --> 00:31:43,915 we'll have the second key and we can recover and sweep the funds, but of 660 00:31:43,915 --> 00:31:46,685 course, because we only have one key, we can never move them on our own. 661 00:31:47,435 --> 00:31:53,235 This is a beautiful compromise between the strength of self custody, uh, and without 662 00:31:53,235 --> 00:31:56,965 the dangers, right, of being singularly responsible yourself for doing all this. 663 00:31:56,985 --> 00:32:00,455 Some people can do that, not everybody can, and so this is a great solution. 664 00:32:01,057 --> 00:32:05,127 the same exact multi sig structure, two of three, is what Unchain also 665 00:32:05,127 --> 00:32:06,937 uses to power our lending program. 666 00:32:06,967 --> 00:32:09,917 So you can borrow against Bitcoin, you can collateralize the value of 667 00:32:09,917 --> 00:32:11,297 your Bitcoin and get dollars out. 668 00:32:11,797 --> 00:32:14,677 Um, you don't have to sell it, which is almost always economically the 669 00:32:14,677 --> 00:32:17,037 right decision because Bitcoin grows so quickly, you definitely don't 670 00:32:17,037 --> 00:32:18,037 want to sell it if you can avoid it. 671 00:32:18,662 --> 00:32:22,732 So we still use a 2 of 3 multisig for our loans, but we choose to distribute 672 00:32:22,782 --> 00:32:24,062 the keys in a different quorum. 673 00:32:24,622 --> 00:32:28,022 So instead of you as the borrower holding two keys, which would allow you 674 00:32:28,022 --> 00:32:30,832 to just, you know, walk away with the collateral, you only get to have one. 675 00:32:31,442 --> 00:32:33,742 And Unchained will have a second key, and we'll have a third key 676 00:32:33,742 --> 00:32:35,132 held by an independent third party. 677 00:32:35,512 --> 00:32:39,662 It's still a 2 of 3, and each party has one key, so no single party can 678 00:32:39,662 --> 00:32:40,712 now move the funds on their own. 679 00:32:41,172 --> 00:32:42,082 This is a very stable structure. 680 00:32:42,092 --> 00:32:45,422 If we want to liquidate your loan or we need to return it to you or whatever it 681 00:32:45,422 --> 00:32:47,882 is, we're going to have to collaborate either with you as the borrower or 682 00:32:48,072 --> 00:32:49,322 with that independent third party. 683 00:32:50,212 --> 00:32:54,142 And so this is a really nice conceit because it gives us a lot of safety 684 00:32:54,152 --> 00:32:55,482 around collateral management. 685 00:32:55,922 --> 00:32:59,217 Um, You know, as the borrower, we're not rehypothecating your 686 00:32:59,227 --> 00:33:00,967 assets on the back end, right? 687 00:33:00,967 --> 00:33:03,737 Like these are very powerful protections and they're delivered to all the 688 00:33:03,737 --> 00:33:06,887 participants in the, in the custody through a cryptographic channel. 689 00:33:06,907 --> 00:33:08,307 So you don't even have to trust that we're doing this. 690 00:33:08,307 --> 00:33:11,227 You can verify that the product works the way that we're describing. 691 00:33:11,677 --> 00:33:14,837 And I think part of the reason that Unchained is one of the few lenders 692 00:33:14,867 --> 00:33:18,057 in the Bitcoin collateralized world left, at least, you know, in the world 693 00:33:18,057 --> 00:33:21,647 and in the United States, is because of these constraints and protections. 694 00:33:21,767 --> 00:33:23,237 You know, I'm a big believer that. 695 00:33:24,562 --> 00:33:27,272 Almost everything that, that is allowed is, you know, mandatory 696 00:33:27,272 --> 00:33:29,002 almost, um, or will happen. 697 00:33:29,082 --> 00:33:32,322 And so if you put in hard constraints in your business, like we can never 698 00:33:32,322 --> 00:33:38,902 do this, it prevents whole like, like modes of behavior and malfeasance and 699 00:33:38,902 --> 00:33:43,112 whatever else, you know, Unchained has never had to, um, ask ourselves, should 700 00:33:43,112 --> 00:33:44,882 we rehypothecate our client's assets? 701 00:33:44,892 --> 00:33:47,202 Should we make an investment in this dangerous thing to make a 702 00:33:47,202 --> 00:33:48,492 bunch of money for our own business? 703 00:33:49,392 --> 00:33:50,052 We can't do it. 704 00:33:50,392 --> 00:33:50,672 Right? 705 00:33:50,742 --> 00:33:53,842 I would like to believe we never would do it, even if we had the ability, 706 00:33:53,992 --> 00:33:55,212 but we don't have the ability. 707 00:33:55,502 --> 00:33:57,102 And that means we never have to ask the question. 708 00:33:57,382 --> 00:34:00,792 So we don't have to rely on our moral character, or our strength, or like 709 00:34:00,792 --> 00:34:01,822 the alignment of our executives. 710 00:34:01,892 --> 00:34:04,382 We just built it into the product that it's just fucking impossible to do it. 711 00:34:04,932 --> 00:34:05,552 I love that. 712 00:34:05,602 --> 00:34:09,202 And it means that I don't have to constantly be the cultural, you 713 00:34:09,202 --> 00:34:12,262 know, watchdog making sure everybody is doing all the right things. 714 00:34:12,292 --> 00:34:12,962 It's just built in. 715 00:34:13,052 --> 00:34:14,612 And I think that's super powerful. 716 00:34:15,467 --> 00:34:20,707 And this is like in line with the Bitcoin ethos, I guess, in a sense, 717 00:34:20,707 --> 00:34:25,377 then is that, is that why you make the moral choices you make or is 718 00:34:25,567 --> 00:34:29,287 It's, it's, it's a mix, you know, truthfully, like, I think I'm, I would 719 00:34:29,287 --> 00:34:34,337 say today in 2023, I can say truthfully that I think this aligns better with 720 00:34:34,347 --> 00:34:39,837 the Bitcoin ethos just overall, but I would say that in 2017, 18, when this 721 00:34:39,837 --> 00:34:42,807 was all being built out, I don't know that that was the reason I was building. 722 00:34:43,397 --> 00:34:45,497 Like, the biggest reason I was building it was security. 723 00:34:46,027 --> 00:34:47,867 Because I looked at, okay, what is my budget? 724 00:34:48,027 --> 00:34:50,007 I am a seven person startup. 725 00:34:50,267 --> 00:34:51,627 You know, I have this much money. 726 00:34:52,337 --> 00:34:54,527 How will I protect my clients funds? 727 00:34:54,867 --> 00:34:58,725 Am I really going to be able to do a better job than, these giant 728 00:34:58,735 --> 00:35:01,980 exchanges that literally were hacked you know, last week or whatever? 729 00:35:02,020 --> 00:35:05,815 I know I'm scratching my head being like, man, there's no way Big 730 00:35:05,845 --> 00:35:07,395 companies get hacked all the time. 731 00:35:07,425 --> 00:35:10,115 I will never be able to keep the stuff safe on my own. 732 00:35:10,585 --> 00:35:11,495 And so, what do I do? 733 00:35:11,825 --> 00:35:16,835 Do I just not solve the problem and make it BitGo's problem or Coinbase's problem? 734 00:35:16,835 --> 00:35:18,795 Or give it to a custodian? 735 00:35:18,795 --> 00:35:21,095 Like, that is almost the rational choice. 736 00:35:21,415 --> 00:35:23,515 Because you say, this is very hard, I don't have the budget to do this, I'll 737 00:35:23,515 --> 00:35:24,805 pay somebody else to solve the problem. 738 00:35:25,345 --> 00:35:26,565 That's just great economics, right? 739 00:35:26,565 --> 00:35:28,065 That's specialization at work. 740 00:35:28,645 --> 00:35:29,935 But in my head, I was like, fuck that. 741 00:35:29,935 --> 00:35:30,860 I don't trust those people. 742 00:35:31,170 --> 00:35:31,400 Right? 743 00:35:31,400 --> 00:35:34,033 Because isn't the notion of centralizing custody part of 744 00:35:34,033 --> 00:35:35,633 what leads to these bad outcomes? 745 00:35:35,633 --> 00:35:36,451 Like, you know, Mt. 746 00:35:36,451 --> 00:35:37,931 Gox and Bifinex and all these things. 747 00:35:38,271 --> 00:35:42,191 So I kind of just convinced myself, dude, I have another option. 748 00:35:42,201 --> 00:35:43,451 Multi sig exists. 749 00:35:43,822 --> 00:35:46,232 we were already using multi sig internally at Unchained. 750 00:35:46,242 --> 00:35:48,972 We had all the keys and we were just using an internal multi sig 751 00:35:48,982 --> 00:35:52,782 quorum like most custodians who do custody will have something like 752 00:35:52,782 --> 00:35:54,182 that internally to their systems. 753 00:35:54,772 --> 00:35:56,692 And I realized we should just share the keys. 754 00:35:56,967 --> 00:36:00,807 If I just spread the keys out, like, between me and all the customers, then 755 00:36:00,827 --> 00:36:05,101 I'll have keys around the planet, and to attack, the Bitcoin, you'll have to 756 00:36:05,101 --> 00:36:08,671 hack me and 10, 000 separate customers? 757 00:36:09,221 --> 00:36:10,171 That's not going to work. 758 00:36:10,401 --> 00:36:11,861 Like, you'll just hack somebody else. 759 00:36:12,301 --> 00:36:15,471 And so I started to think to myself, like, okay, I got to do this, like, 760 00:36:15,481 --> 00:36:19,721 and it's because At this point, then I can live in a world where Unchained's 761 00:36:19,771 --> 00:36:23,241 private key, like the loss of that private key, does not mean the loss of Bitcoin. 762 00:36:24,011 --> 00:36:26,861 Now, obviously, we have never lost our private key, we've never been hacked in 763 00:36:26,861 --> 00:36:29,971 that way, I never intend to be, it'll be a huge pain in my ass if that happens. 764 00:36:30,301 --> 00:36:32,421 But if it happens, it's not the end of the Bitcoin. 765 00:36:32,421 --> 00:36:33,731 And that was very important to me. 766 00:36:33,761 --> 00:36:36,391 I had to live in that world, otherwise I couldn't go to bed at night. 767 00:36:38,066 --> 00:36:38,456 choice? 768 00:36:38,776 --> 00:36:42,766 So, so how KYC does this, like 769 00:36:42,956 --> 00:36:44,016 how much KYC? 770 00:36:44,316 --> 00:36:44,656 Yeah. 771 00:36:44,961 --> 00:36:45,791 Oh, very, very. 772 00:36:45,801 --> 00:36:48,871 We are a US financial institution, we are regulated, so we know who our 773 00:36:48,986 --> 00:36:50,456 So you need to follow, follow, 774 00:36:50,561 --> 00:36:50,911 need... 775 00:36:51,531 --> 00:36:51,991 Yeah, we do. 776 00:36:52,031 --> 00:36:54,311 And now, to be fair, we're not zealots about it. 777 00:36:54,431 --> 00:36:56,861 I think we collect the minimum data that we need in order to 778 00:36:56,861 --> 00:37:00,241 legally and safely, like, be able to offer our financial products. 779 00:37:00,441 --> 00:37:04,141 I'll also go further and say, though, part of what I've realized is, even 780 00:37:04,141 --> 00:37:09,792 without KYC, right, as a regulation, as a practice, I completely endorse it. 781 00:37:09,882 --> 00:37:11,542 I need to know who my customer is. 782 00:37:11,592 --> 00:37:13,152 I'm in collaborative custody with them. 783 00:37:13,392 --> 00:37:15,172 They're going to ask me to sign a transaction. 784 00:37:15,412 --> 00:37:17,282 I need to be able to verify their identity. 785 00:37:17,782 --> 00:37:22,872 So there's this notion of, like, of privacy versus anonymity, you know, 786 00:37:23,122 --> 00:37:26,622 and I think I'm, like, Unchained lives in a world where we cannot offer you 787 00:37:26,622 --> 00:37:30,672 anonymity, one, because of regulations and compliance reasons, two, because we 788 00:37:30,672 --> 00:37:34,352 must know who you are in the real world so that we can verify your identity. 789 00:37:34,522 --> 00:37:38,152 We're constantly under attack, and our clients are constantly under attack, 790 00:37:38,152 --> 00:37:41,837 and the fact that we know what they look like, that we can, Reach out to 791 00:37:41,837 --> 00:37:46,167 them in the real world, that we can use non, you know, application web based 792 00:37:46,167 --> 00:37:49,987 channels to just have that conversation is really important to serving them well. 793 00:37:50,424 --> 00:37:53,094 I wish that there was no government connection to this. 794 00:37:53,264 --> 00:37:55,264 I wish that only, only we needed to know. 795 00:37:55,264 --> 00:37:58,074 We never would be in a position to have to share that information ever. 796 00:37:58,344 --> 00:38:01,464 But as a regulated financial institution, like, we have to comply with subpoenas, 797 00:38:01,674 --> 00:38:02,844 like, like we have to do other things. 798 00:38:02,844 --> 00:38:06,384 So it's like, I take a little bit more of a nuanced view that us 799 00:38:06,404 --> 00:38:09,724 knowing who our customers are is really, really valuable and important. 800 00:38:10,230 --> 00:38:12,070 and it helps protect them. 801 00:38:12,100 --> 00:38:16,170 And so when you work with Unchained, you are saying, I am okay losing 802 00:38:16,180 --> 00:38:18,890 anonymity, but I still demand privacy. 803 00:38:19,305 --> 00:38:22,145 And so we work incredibly hard to make sure that we don't 804 00:38:22,155 --> 00:38:23,575 leak customer data, right? 805 00:38:23,575 --> 00:38:26,305 We build a lot of things in house when we use third party services. 806 00:38:26,305 --> 00:38:29,555 We minimize absolutely the amount of data that's going to those systems. 807 00:38:30,485 --> 00:38:34,045 We've been largely successful, if not perfectly successful in our business's 808 00:38:34,045 --> 00:38:35,775 history at accomplishing this. 809 00:38:36,194 --> 00:38:37,534 It's a, it's a very much a trade off. 810 00:38:37,634 --> 00:38:42,694 Now, with that said, I think there's a huge space for anonymous, 811 00:38:42,908 --> 00:38:44,488 versions of collaborative custody. 812 00:38:44,788 --> 00:38:47,368 And eventually, anonymous financial services as well. 813 00:38:48,028 --> 00:38:49,968 Um, it's just harder to build those things. 814 00:38:50,090 --> 00:38:52,640 and I think where I'm sitting, like, we're building the thing that 815 00:38:52,640 --> 00:38:56,737 I think comes first know, like, I love, like, the BISC guys and, like, 816 00:38:56,747 --> 00:38:59,777 a lot of the other approaches to being able to do truly anonymous. 817 00:39:00,737 --> 00:39:04,017 Exactly, man, that stuff is great, and I think it has to grow. 818 00:39:04,427 --> 00:39:06,637 But I also live in the United States. 819 00:39:06,677 --> 00:39:08,397 I'm building a business in the United States. 820 00:39:08,447 --> 00:39:10,187 My investors and employees live in the United States. 821 00:39:10,237 --> 00:39:11,047 I'm trying to be... 822 00:39:11,617 --> 00:39:13,277 I'm trying to build a thing that makes sense here. 823 00:39:13,497 --> 00:39:13,717 And 824 00:39:13,772 --> 00:39:15,812 You're building a bridge, aren't 825 00:39:15,987 --> 00:39:19,907 yeah, very much like, and bridges, bridges are, were thematically all 826 00:39:19,907 --> 00:39:22,407 over our website for the first three years of our existence, because we 827 00:39:22,407 --> 00:39:25,807 saw that too, where like, we need to figure out, like, it's going to take 828 00:39:25,807 --> 00:39:28,187 time for us to make Bitcoin Bitcoin. 829 00:39:28,471 --> 00:39:32,501 replace the internet, and like, the impossible to be surveilled, and like, 830 00:39:32,511 --> 00:39:35,431 that's gonna take a couple decades, like, and between here and there, 831 00:39:35,441 --> 00:39:38,371 dollars are still gonna exist and be important, so like, let's be the 832 00:39:38,371 --> 00:39:43,031 bridge that like, allows Bitcoin to be more useful, to like, gives Bitcoiners 833 00:39:43,041 --> 00:39:46,881 more options, and then eventually, hopefully, we ourselves are putting 834 00:39:46,881 --> 00:39:48,361 certain product lines out of business. 835 00:39:48,361 --> 00:39:50,646 You know, in 30 years, if Unchain is around, are we still gonna be around? 836 00:39:51,126 --> 00:39:54,766 Doing US dollar loans, like I hope not, you know, like I 837 00:39:54,766 --> 00:39:55,996 hope no one wants those loans. 838 00:39:56,041 --> 00:39:58,551 I hope the dollars doesn't exist anymore by then. 839 00:39:58,881 --> 00:39:59,101 So, 840 00:39:59,468 --> 00:40:01,958 So there's a certain sense in which I understand that like there's a 841 00:40:01,958 --> 00:40:04,948 now and then there's a later, and I'm trying to build for now, but 842 00:40:04,958 --> 00:40:06,638 still in a way that is principled. 843 00:40:06,638 --> 00:40:10,149 I don't want to make short term decisions, for example, well eventually 844 00:40:10,149 --> 00:40:12,759 people want to have their own keys, but right now it's hard to screw 845 00:40:12,759 --> 00:40:15,359 it, I'll just have all the bitcoin, I'll rehypothecate it, and I'll do 846 00:40:15,359 --> 00:40:16,709 whatever, like that's, that's not right. 847 00:40:17,249 --> 00:40:18,509 Um, so I don't know. 848 00:40:18,814 --> 00:40:19,684 A little bit of nuance, I 849 00:40:19,804 --> 00:40:24,484 so as a specific question about the KYC process, like, is, is 850 00:40:24,524 --> 00:40:26,664 the Bitcoin public address? 851 00:40:27,211 --> 00:40:30,901 do the, do like regulators ever ask for that? 852 00:40:30,941 --> 00:40:33,791 Or is it just like this person bought Bitcoin Bitcoin for 853 00:40:33,791 --> 00:40:35,411 these men, this many dollars? 854 00:40:36,317 --> 00:40:39,997 does it ever include the actual Bitcoin address and, and, 855 00:40:39,997 --> 00:40:42,097 uh, the amount of Bitcoins? 856 00:40:42,897 --> 00:40:45,907 You're starting to ask questions that are at the boundary of what I actually 857 00:40:45,917 --> 00:40:47,647 literally know about the business. 858 00:40:47,697 --> 00:40:51,607 But in general, they're not so interested in the addresses and stuff like, I 859 00:40:51,677 --> 00:40:53,097 don't think of the world that way. 860 00:40:53,177 --> 00:40:53,797 You know what I mean? 861 00:40:54,037 --> 00:40:58,177 Like in some cases, for example, if we've had like an attacker, like, like 862 00:40:58,187 --> 00:41:01,407 attack one of our clients, and we've had to therefore file a suspicious activity 863 00:41:01,407 --> 00:41:02,887 report, like we may So thank you. 864 00:41:03,237 --> 00:41:05,567 We want to include certain information in that situation. 865 00:41:05,567 --> 00:41:08,677 We might want to report certain address information to law enforcement, right? 866 00:41:08,677 --> 00:41:11,407 In the cases where we've had clients who are being attacked and in the 867 00:41:11,407 --> 00:41:13,987 physical world and like there's all sorts of, you know, as a bank, 868 00:41:13,987 --> 00:41:15,057 we wind up in that situation. 869 00:41:15,057 --> 00:41:18,637 But in general, no, I, we, we seldom get like requests to be like, Hey, I 870 00:41:18,637 --> 00:41:19,727 need the addresses of these people. 871 00:41:20,147 --> 00:41:21,977 That's just not a thing that gets asked for. 872 00:41:21,977 --> 00:41:22,367 Right. 873 00:41:22,687 --> 00:41:25,937 Yeah, the, the, the reason I ask is because I've, I've heard the same 874 00:41:25,937 --> 00:41:29,687 story from a lot of companies in a lot of countries that like, uh, the 875 00:41:29,687 --> 00:41:34,267 KYC thing is one thing, but it's always only on the Fiat side, really. 876 00:41:34,747 --> 00:41:39,007 And the Bitcoin side, uh, the people who make these laws and the people 877 00:41:39,007 --> 00:41:42,227 who are supposed to look into the, they know nothing about this stuff. 878 00:41:42,247 --> 00:41:44,587 So it's, it's, it's hard for them to, 879 00:41:45,347 --> 00:41:49,817 And, and ironically, the fiat side almost solves itself sometimes because. 880 00:41:49,957 --> 00:41:54,547 Like, we're not required to do AML, stuff, like, when we get a deposit of 881 00:41:54,547 --> 00:41:57,527 dollars coming in, because it's coming from a US bank, and the assumption is, 882 00:41:57,527 --> 00:41:59,857 oh, it's already in the network, and therefore, like, they're doing that 883 00:41:59,857 --> 00:42:03,427 work, and whatever else, like, there are, like, the requirements can be a little 884 00:42:03,427 --> 00:42:06,067 bit more onerous on the Bitcoin side, but at the same time, like, because, 885 00:42:06,277 --> 00:42:07,277 like, what are they supposed to say? 886 00:42:07,277 --> 00:42:09,857 Like, there's no requirement that we must chain analysis everything, 887 00:42:09,867 --> 00:42:12,392 like, that's not a real law, you know, they might say, okay. 888 00:42:12,392 --> 00:42:14,952 For example, for a lending against Bitcoin collateral, they might say, well, you 889 00:42:14,952 --> 00:42:16,352 need to know where the Bitcoin came from. 890 00:42:16,352 --> 00:42:17,902 Like, where did this person get the Bitcoin from? 891 00:42:17,952 --> 00:42:19,522 So we'll ask them, where'd you get it from? 892 00:42:19,712 --> 00:42:21,702 They'll say, I bought it in 2017. 893 00:42:21,702 --> 00:42:24,312 And we'll say, great requirement met, you know, like, 894 00:42:24,626 --> 00:42:27,816 The thing I, the thing I hope will happen in the future is 895 00:42:27,856 --> 00:42:29,286 that more and more people. 896 00:42:29,843 --> 00:42:35,443 writing laws, and thinking about laws and, and, uh, regulations, uh, that, 897 00:42:35,713 --> 00:42:40,183 you know, ownership of a Bitcoin is so different from ownership of anything 898 00:42:40,188 --> 00:42:44,203 else because it's just keeping a secret and there's no way to tell if 899 00:42:44,203 --> 00:42:46,243 someone else also has that secret. 900 00:42:46,763 --> 00:42:51,213 So there's, there's really no way to tell who used a Bitcoin. 901 00:42:51,781 --> 00:42:54,721 because what does using a Bitcoin even mean? 902 00:42:54,731 --> 00:42:58,931 Like you move a number in a database that is shared by everyone 903 00:42:58,951 --> 00:43:00,881 and there's a likelihood that's. 904 00:43:01,786 --> 00:43:06,206 Someone else knew the secret, like, there's like, no real connection, 905 00:43:06,216 --> 00:43:11,626 the connection to the number is so personal, so it makes all of 906 00:43:11,626 --> 00:43:18,661 these legalities, if you will, very strange, They feel outdated somehow. 907 00:43:18,661 --> 00:43:21,111 It's, it's, it's like intellectual property that 908 00:43:21,131 --> 00:43:23,191 like, it doesn't really work. 909 00:43:23,971 --> 00:43:27,351 Then again, we're we still live in a world where we have to follow rules, 910 00:43:27,381 --> 00:43:30,791 but, but I hope that more and more people will start thinking about these things. 911 00:43:31,146 --> 00:43:32,006 I mean, it's a process. 912 00:43:32,006 --> 00:43:35,066 And unfortunately, I don't know that Bitcoin companies have done 913 00:43:35,076 --> 00:43:38,731 the best, have the best track record in educating legislators yet. 914 00:43:38,764 --> 00:43:41,414 You know, I think the shitcoin land spends a lot of time and 915 00:43:41,414 --> 00:43:44,834 money because maybe they have money to burn on lobbying and whatnot. 916 00:43:44,834 --> 00:43:46,474 Like, we're not, we're less successful. 917 00:43:46,774 --> 00:43:49,144 I think there's concepts like custodial, like, what does it mean 918 00:43:49,144 --> 00:43:52,424 to be a custodian when there's multiple keys and multiple parties? 919 00:43:52,454 --> 00:43:53,834 Like, who is the custodian now? 920 00:43:53,844 --> 00:43:55,454 Like, what is, what do you, what do you even mean anymore? 921 00:43:55,584 --> 00:43:56,224 Like, that's not possible. 922 00:43:56,234 --> 00:43:58,414 You can't have dollars in a multi sig arrangement. 923 00:43:58,424 --> 00:44:01,034 You can't put real estate in a multi sig arrangement, altcoins 924 00:44:01,394 --> 00:44:02,994 for real estate, notwithstanding. 925 00:44:03,344 --> 00:44:05,758 It's like those ideas really need to be rethought. 926 00:44:06,148 --> 00:44:06,418 You know, 927 00:44:06,678 --> 00:44:10,628 Yeah, and unhosted wallet, what the EU is calling it now. 928 00:44:10,938 --> 00:44:11,738 Like, what is that? 929 00:44:11,748 --> 00:44:12,638 What even is that? 930 00:44:12,638 --> 00:44:13,338 Like, so, 931 00:44:13,488 --> 00:44:15,898 so it's forbidden to remember 12 words now? 932 00:44:16,734 --> 00:44:18,514 Because that's an unhosted wallet, right? 933 00:44:18,544 --> 00:44:20,714 If I, if I say the word bacon 934 00:44:20,724 --> 00:44:21,474 12 times. 935 00:44:22,314 --> 00:44:22,614 Yeah. 936 00:44:22,709 --> 00:44:23,379 a criminal. 937 00:44:24,044 --> 00:44:24,404 No, no. 938 00:44:24,489 --> 00:44:28,139 I, if I remember the word bacon 12 times, I'm a criminal, because 939 00:44:28,149 --> 00:44:29,429 that's a valid Bitcoin address. 940 00:44:30,024 --> 00:44:33,798 and, and I definitely believe that, like, however you might, if you wanna 941 00:44:33,798 --> 00:44:36,438 give people as much credit as you can, and you might say that their 942 00:44:36,438 --> 00:44:41,328 intentions were good in the sense of wanting to prevent bad behavior that 943 00:44:41,328 --> 00:44:45,498 is destructive to society, but the implementation of centralized businesses, 944 00:44:45,498 --> 00:44:47,628 tracking everything about each person. 945 00:44:48,143 --> 00:44:48,563 Never. 946 00:44:48,603 --> 00:44:49,453 That's not a good solution. 947 00:44:49,463 --> 00:44:50,963 Like that just causes more problems. 948 00:44:50,963 --> 00:44:54,693 It causes the centralization of consumer data, which inevitably leaks and causes 949 00:44:54,693 --> 00:44:57,803 problems for every single person that had to participate in that process. 950 00:44:57,803 --> 00:45:01,573 It slows down my business, makes me implement and or use services I don't 951 00:45:01,573 --> 00:45:03,323 want to use and I think are dangerous. 952 00:45:03,689 --> 00:45:07,239 it's an anti pattern and I'd like I just think it would be much healthier 953 00:45:07,249 --> 00:45:12,219 if there was a different philosophy here in place about how to try to affect the 954 00:45:12,219 --> 00:45:16,309 same outcomes, nobody wants terrorists lives to be easier because of Bitcoin, 955 00:45:16,699 --> 00:45:21,629 but the solution is not make everyone's lives impoverished and worse by having 956 00:45:21,639 --> 00:45:24,159 it all be tracked by some government agency or whatever it is, right? 957 00:45:24,160 --> 00:45:25,729 Like, whatever you think the problem is, right? 958 00:45:26,019 --> 00:45:27,819 don't solution a worse problem. 959 00:45:28,209 --> 00:45:28,569 Right? 960 00:45:28,739 --> 00:45:33,069 But then, then again, if people's lives were easier, they might not 961 00:45:33,069 --> 00:45:34,909 want to be terrorists as much. 962 00:45:34,999 --> 00:45:35,969 So, like, it's, 963 00:45:35,979 --> 00:45:40,469 that's this, uh, the road to hell is paved with good intentions thing, 964 00:45:40,499 --> 00:45:40,819 Yes. 965 00:45:40,959 --> 00:45:41,859 uh, going on. 966 00:45:42,309 --> 00:45:42,919 Very much. 967 00:45:43,927 --> 00:45:45,817 So how are you enjoying this episode so far? 968 00:45:46,267 --> 00:45:49,277 Before we dive back in, first a little bit about our sponsors. 969 00:45:49,857 --> 00:45:51,317 First up, Wasabi Wallet. 970 00:45:51,597 --> 00:45:55,037 The privacy by default, open source, non 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00:46:26,607 --> 00:46:29,767 io and download Wasabi today. 983 00:46:30,167 --> 00:46:31,517 Next up, Orange Pill App. 984 00:46:31,737 --> 00:46:34,827 The bitcoin social layer app for iOS and Android where you can 985 00:46:34,827 --> 00:46:36,327 stack friends who stack sats. 986 00:46:36,967 --> 00:46:39,837 You can connect with your favorite bitcoiners on the app, make local 987 00:46:39,837 --> 00:46:42,817 connections, and even connect with bitcoiners around the world. 988 00:46:43,377 --> 00:46:45,407 And a big feature on Orange Pill App is Vents. 989 00:46:45,952 --> 00:46:49,302 You can see what's going on in your area and connect with Bitcoiners around you. 990 00:46:49,812 --> 00:46:52,222 I've been to multiple OrangePill app events and they brought 991 00:46:52,222 --> 00:46:54,112 Bitcoiners together from all over. 992 00:46:54,752 --> 00:46:58,162 The best part is, you know it's high signal, there's no spam on OrangePill 993 00:46:58,162 --> 00:46:59,792 app because 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00:47:35,447 They have a skilled team, well versed in the bitcoin space, and their goal is to 1006 00:47:35,447 --> 00:47:39,327 make all the complexities of bitcoin as straightforward as possible for everyone. 1007 00:47:39,887 --> 00:47:42,397 And the best part is you can get started with a free 30 1008 00:47:42,397 --> 00:47:43,587 minute call with their team. 1009 00:47:44,117 --> 00:47:45,627 Go to thebitcoinway. 1010 00:47:45,657 --> 00:47:47,877 com slash contact for more info. 1011 00:47:48,347 --> 00:47:49,377 Alright back to it. 1012 00:47:49,417 --> 00:47:51,117 Don't forget to like, subscribe, and brush your teeth. 1013 00:47:51,161 --> 00:47:55,330 Drew, maybe you can tell, tell us a little bit more about, um, cause, cause you've 1014 00:47:55,330 --> 00:48:01,220 taken the conversation a few different ways here so far and, and the, a couple 1015 00:48:01,220 --> 00:48:05,890 of things that were interesting to me before, um, this conversation, you've 1016 00:48:05,920 --> 00:48:10,060 covered a lot about the collaborative custody, but maybe kind of from the, the 1017 00:48:10,090 --> 00:48:16,677 ideas side of it, what do you hope that the, the role of Unchained looks like? 1018 00:48:16,852 --> 00:48:21,332 this 30 years, 50 years into the future and maybe a little 1019 00:48:21,332 --> 00:48:24,472 bit along the road to there. 1020 00:48:24,482 --> 00:48:25,332 Have you thought about that? 1021 00:48:26,482 --> 00:48:26,742 Yeah. 1022 00:48:26,742 --> 00:48:31,452 I mean, a little bit, I'll give you an answer maybe in two stages or generations. 1023 00:48:31,492 --> 00:48:33,182 You know, there's, there's what, what I like to. 1024 00:48:33,212 --> 00:48:36,762 to accomplish in the shorter term of that very long time period. 1025 00:48:37,232 --> 00:48:40,202 And obviously, you know, I would like Brunchain to become a 1026 00:48:40,282 --> 00:48:45,042 profitable, best in class bank and private wealth management business. 1027 00:48:45,262 --> 00:48:50,775 I think the model that we have is extremely, compelling for our clients. 1028 00:48:51,055 --> 00:48:55,385 I think we give them more control and transparency into their finances than they 1029 00:48:55,385 --> 00:48:57,035 would ever get from a traditional bank. 1030 00:48:57,890 --> 00:49:01,420 I mean, consider this, we ourselves make open source software and 1031 00:49:01,420 --> 00:49:05,020 train our clients on how, if we were to disappear as a business. 1032 00:49:05,680 --> 00:49:08,170 Or even if we're still around, for that matter, they can, in a simple 1033 00:49:08,180 --> 00:49:11,600 transaction, use their own keys to extract all the Bitcoin in our 1034 00:49:11,600 --> 00:49:13,300 platform, wherever else they need to go. 1035 00:49:13,540 --> 00:49:17,670 we work really hard on educating them, that like, this is your coin, you're the 1036 00:49:17,670 --> 00:49:21,850 one responsible, we're helping you, but really, you're in charge, and if you don't 1037 00:49:21,850 --> 00:49:25,770 like us, you don't like what we're doing, we disappear, we fail, we try to rug pull 1038 00:49:25,770 --> 00:49:27,410 you or whatever, like, you can get out. 1039 00:49:27,528 --> 00:49:29,355 on your own, independent of us. 1040 00:49:29,365 --> 00:49:30,585 And it's such an important point. 1041 00:49:30,858 --> 00:49:33,528 think for a lot of clients, they'll never do it, but they just 1042 00:49:33,578 --> 00:49:34,848 like to know that it's possible. 1043 00:49:35,085 --> 00:49:38,555 but because it is possible, we're then put in the position of, it's very hard 1044 00:49:38,555 --> 00:49:40,775 for us to, like, lock in our clients. 1045 00:49:40,928 --> 00:49:45,148 If we give them bad service, Or our product degrades, or they have a bad 1046 00:49:45,148 --> 00:49:49,048 experience, like they're 25 minutes away from moving millions of dollars 1047 00:49:49,048 --> 00:49:51,828 in one bitcoin transaction out of here back to somewhere else, right? 1048 00:49:52,178 --> 00:49:55,092 And in a world like that, like, how are we then incentivized? 1049 00:49:55,112 --> 00:49:58,182 Like, what, what, what is the behavior you expect from us as a business that 1050 00:49:58,182 --> 00:50:00,012 seeks to, like, grow and earn revenues? 1051 00:50:00,423 --> 00:50:02,133 We work really hard to retain those clients. 1052 00:50:02,763 --> 00:50:04,133 We have incredible customer service. 1053 00:50:04,143 --> 00:50:05,873 You call us, you get a human being on the phone. 1054 00:50:06,100 --> 00:50:09,260 we have to work hard to keep those deposits in our system. 1055 00:50:10,400 --> 00:50:11,110 And I love that. 1056 00:50:11,180 --> 00:50:13,560 I love that for us, because it makes us a better business. 1057 00:50:13,570 --> 00:50:17,460 It makes us what I wish banking were, which is value added custodianship 1058 00:50:17,480 --> 00:50:19,230 and help and financial services. 1059 00:50:19,230 --> 00:50:22,865 Not, I just got a mortgage recently for a new home, It was a disaster. 1060 00:50:22,945 --> 00:50:24,035 It was a terrible experience. 1061 00:50:24,115 --> 00:50:26,315 I was treated like shadow by the bank. 1062 00:50:26,565 --> 00:50:30,305 Um, I was prodded and asked for questions and they weren't listening to me and 1063 00:50:30,325 --> 00:50:32,865 they don't understand my business and they don't treat me as a human being. 1064 00:50:33,505 --> 00:50:34,945 I didn't even get a good deal out of it. 1065 00:50:35,368 --> 00:50:38,108 and I wish they were on chain gate mortgages because I know I 1066 00:50:38,108 --> 00:50:39,088 would have gotten a better deal. 1067 00:50:39,138 --> 00:50:41,948 I, they would have recognized my Bitcoin wealth a little bit more, right? 1068 00:50:41,948 --> 00:50:44,718 Like I would have not felt like such a commodified human being. 1069 00:50:45,100 --> 00:50:50,537 Sorry for interrupting, uh, but it feels like banks have been becoming worse and 1070 00:50:50,537 --> 00:50:55,897 worse these last couple of years, that something really crucial has shifted 1071 00:50:55,907 --> 00:50:59,687 when they can, you know, just shut off accounts and maybe they could that all 1072 00:50:59,687 --> 00:51:03,517 along, but they've been doing it for real, like, and it's, it's pretty scary. 1073 00:51:04,277 --> 00:51:05,417 What they're capable of. 1074 00:51:05,807 --> 00:51:10,267 Yeah, and I would like to operate a bank that has a different calculus 1075 00:51:10,277 --> 00:51:11,747 for what they think that they are. 1076 00:51:11,977 --> 00:51:15,257 Like, banks are all about, let us get as many of your assets in place, 1077 00:51:15,397 --> 00:51:17,760 and let us rehypothecate them, and there's this question, like, 1078 00:51:17,840 --> 00:51:22,040 how does the rehypothecation of a depositor's assets help the depositor? 1079 00:51:22,920 --> 00:51:23,800 Yeah, exactly. 1080 00:51:24,260 --> 00:51:27,380 Like, I have examples from my own life. 1081 00:51:27,380 --> 00:51:31,880 I tried to withdraw a quite large amount of cash a while 1082 00:51:32,250 --> 00:51:33,670 Mm hmm, that's suspicious, man. 1083 00:51:34,010 --> 00:51:35,160 What are you doing with that money? 1084 00:51:35,610 --> 00:51:36,620 the cash for? 1085 00:51:37,163 --> 00:51:38,343 none of your business. 1086 00:51:38,343 --> 00:51:39,583 It's my money, isn't it? 1087 00:51:39,693 --> 00:51:41,863 but no, they need to know. 1088 00:51:42,593 --> 00:51:44,413 no, it's, and, and it's like... 1089 00:51:44,760 --> 00:51:47,750 We're trying to work in a different mentality, which is instead of our 1090 00:51:47,750 --> 00:51:51,070 revenue model being like, we give you everything for free, we take all your 1091 00:51:51,070 --> 00:51:54,430 money, and then we expose the risk, um, and we don't even tell you about it, 1092 00:51:54,430 --> 00:51:56,970 and you have no transparency into what's happening, and then we hassle you as 1093 00:51:56,970 --> 00:51:58,380 you try to take money out of the system. 1094 00:51:58,700 --> 00:51:59,770 We want to invert a lot of that. 1095 00:51:59,940 --> 00:52:03,020 What if you just pay us directly for the value that we provide to you? 1096 00:52:03,650 --> 00:52:06,300 And then what if we give you freedom and control to walk away 1097 00:52:06,300 --> 00:52:07,710 at any time and stop paying us? 1098 00:52:08,210 --> 00:52:12,260 This is a better set of incentives for us to operate on, like it aligns 1099 00:52:12,260 --> 00:52:13,640 our interests with our clients. 1100 00:52:14,060 --> 00:52:17,360 And the reason banks can't operate this way is because the banking industry is 1101 00:52:17,399 --> 00:52:20,380 is predicated upon the notion of reation. 1102 00:52:20,380 --> 00:52:21,820 That's how banking works, man. 1103 00:52:22,090 --> 00:52:25,270 And every time we go to traditional organizations, they look at our business 1104 00:52:25,275 --> 00:52:27,340 and they're like, I don't know why you don't just rehab, ate this stuff 1105 00:52:27,340 --> 00:52:28,180 doesn't make a lot of sense to me. 1106 00:52:28,180 --> 00:52:30,160 You guys would be making more money in the short term if you did that. 1107 00:52:30,660 --> 00:52:32,430 And my answer was always like, yeah, but that's not. 1108 00:52:32,685 --> 00:52:34,945 That is not, I don't think what banking is in the Bitcoin world. 1109 00:52:34,995 --> 00:52:38,115 And I don't want to build some hybrid yahoo. 1110 00:52:38,385 --> 00:52:38,885 com. 1111 00:52:38,955 --> 00:52:40,985 Uh, I want to build like the real thing. 1112 00:52:41,972 --> 00:52:45,542 and I think that requires having some courage and putting some constraints in 1113 00:52:45,542 --> 00:52:49,232 place and risking short term revenue in order to build something really sticky. 1114 00:52:49,232 --> 00:52:51,992 And I am proud to say, I think what we've built is incredibly sticky. 1115 00:52:52,292 --> 00:52:54,212 Like unshamed clients do, do not leave. 1116 00:52:54,272 --> 00:52:55,742 Like we have incredibly low churn. 1117 00:52:55,982 --> 00:52:56,952 Where are they going to go? 1118 00:52:57,172 --> 00:53:00,452 who has a better set of incentives to serve them and who has a better product? 1119 00:53:01,092 --> 00:53:05,302 so, yeah, so what differs you from other, uh, similar services 1120 00:53:05,342 --> 00:53:07,252 such as Casa, for instance? 1121 00:53:07,452 --> 00:53:07,722 Well, 1122 00:53:08,228 --> 00:53:13,078 so I'll first say like, it can be tempting if you're an entrepreneur to hate the 1123 00:53:13,078 --> 00:53:15,098 businesses that are closest to you. 1124 00:53:15,558 --> 00:53:18,918 yeah, yeah, I, I mean, I, I don't want you to talk shit about 1125 00:53:19,138 --> 00:53:21,852 No, I no, my point is that I never would because that's not 1126 00:53:21,852 --> 00:53:23,378 the way that I approach my work. 1127 00:53:23,583 --> 00:53:27,193 I hate when this Bitcoin wallet has beef with this Bitcoin wallet. 1128 00:53:27,333 --> 00:53:28,143 I'm like, you guys are idiots. 1129 00:53:28,153 --> 00:53:29,543 Like, you're in the same industry. 1130 00:53:29,543 --> 00:53:30,523 You need to support each other. 1131 00:53:30,523 --> 00:53:32,763 You should be fighting altcoins and apathy. 1132 00:53:32,893 --> 00:53:34,483 Like, those are the biggest competitors. 1133 00:53:34,523 --> 00:53:38,743 And what I always will say, if you're not going to use Unchained, please use Casa. 1134 00:53:39,103 --> 00:53:40,653 Like, they have an incredibly good product. 1135 00:53:40,983 --> 00:53:42,113 Like, I love their team. 1136 00:53:42,113 --> 00:53:44,233 I've learned so much from Jameson in time. 1137 00:53:44,253 --> 00:53:46,223 It's like, I, I think my product is better. 1138 00:53:46,223 --> 00:53:47,003 That's why I work here. 1139 00:53:47,003 --> 00:53:47,813 And that's why I built this. 1140 00:53:47,813 --> 00:53:51,653 I think the fact that we bundle financial services and lending and buying Bitcoin 1141 00:53:51,653 --> 00:53:55,633 and inheritance, and this is makes our product and our platform more valuable. 1142 00:53:55,673 --> 00:53:58,263 I think we're going to grow faster as a business as a result of those 1143 00:53:58,630 --> 00:54:01,960 real understandings of what Bitcoin is and where the value comes from. 1144 00:54:01,960 --> 00:54:04,780 I think ultimately custody is going to be commodified. 1145 00:54:05,010 --> 00:54:07,610 And a lot of people are going to offer multi sig collaborative custody. 1146 00:54:07,630 --> 00:54:09,520 And that's a good thing, not a bad thing. 1147 00:54:09,830 --> 00:54:10,880 I'm excited about that. 1148 00:54:10,880 --> 00:54:13,500 That creates more options for consumers in the marketplace. 1149 00:54:13,940 --> 00:54:18,060 So in general, I like to believe that it's us and Casa and other 1150 00:54:18,060 --> 00:54:21,840 Bitcoin oriented companies against everyone else who doesn't get it yet. 1151 00:54:22,190 --> 00:54:24,390 but I do think there are things that distinguish Unchained above 1152 00:54:24,390 --> 00:54:25,620 those businesses at the same time. 1153 00:54:26,405 --> 00:54:29,755 I'm very happy to hear this because this is, this is a thing that we, 1154 00:54:29,775 --> 00:54:33,315 uh, me and Luke talk about a lot and, and, uh, with our guests on the pod 1155 00:54:33,315 --> 00:54:38,173 as well, because we strongly believe that, A Bitcoin company is a Bitcoin 1156 00:54:38,223 --> 00:54:42,787 is a company who realizes that, we're all incentivized to collaborate. 1157 00:54:43,427 --> 00:54:47,857 So, so free market competition is a different thing on a Bitcoin standard. 1158 00:54:47,973 --> 00:54:51,243 in the fiat world, you fight each other and, and you, whoever 1159 00:54:51,263 --> 00:54:52,927 provides the best, well, you. 1160 00:54:53,163 --> 00:54:56,063 engage in catalactic competition is the correct term. 1161 00:54:56,093 --> 00:55:00,523 So whoever can make the best product to the cheapest price is supposed to win. 1162 00:55:01,113 --> 00:55:04,983 But in Bitcoin, it's even better than that because like Bitcoiners are incentivized 1163 00:55:05,023 --> 00:55:06,743 to help other Bitcoiners succeed. 1164 00:55:06,753 --> 00:55:09,433 Because when we do, we help Bitcoin succeed. 1165 00:55:09,463 --> 00:55:12,223 So we all, we're all incentivized to help one another. 1166 00:55:12,553 --> 00:55:18,033 And so, so to me, that's very reassuring to hear that you want Casa to succeed 1167 00:55:18,033 --> 00:55:22,038 because that's, That's what I want to hear from Bitcoin companies because we 1168 00:55:22,128 --> 00:55:26,888 should want our competitors to succeed because this thing is, is not about us. 1169 00:55:27,178 --> 00:55:27,448 It's 1170 00:55:27,448 --> 00:55:27,958 about us. 1171 00:55:28,248 --> 00:55:30,478 You know, and I, I still wanna, I still wanna win. 1172 00:55:30,518 --> 00:55:32,818 I still wanna be the best Bitcoin company, et cetera, et cetera. 1173 00:55:33,318 --> 00:55:38,092 Like, of course, but truthfully, I, I, I don't want it to be just me that wins. 1174 00:55:38,112 --> 00:55:42,042 I want there to be real competitors out there because they make me better. 1175 00:55:42,382 --> 00:55:45,712 Like, it is easy to get lazy and to take for granted the service you 1176 00:55:45,712 --> 00:55:48,242 provide to your users if you're the only place they can get it from. 1177 00:55:48,242 --> 00:55:50,222 If you know that there's another competitor that actually has a 1178 00:55:50,222 --> 00:55:53,382 really pretty good product, it forces you to always be your best. 1179 00:55:53,702 --> 00:55:57,232 And frankly, I have had so many competitors that are so terrible. 1180 00:55:57,393 --> 00:56:01,093 they're liars, they're frauds, they're people that I think their product is 1181 00:56:01,123 --> 00:56:03,023 toxic and it hurts people and they use it. 1182 00:56:03,573 --> 00:56:07,183 I welcome competitors who I actually respect, who I think produce good product 1183 00:56:07,453 --> 00:56:08,903 and actually care about their clients. 1184 00:56:08,987 --> 00:56:10,207 I want more of those. 1185 00:56:10,427 --> 00:56:14,330 And every time, a new player enters the arena that I think has good intentions 1186 00:56:14,340 --> 00:56:16,900 and has the same worldview and vision that I have and is trying to build a 1187 00:56:16,900 --> 00:56:18,390 good product, like, I'm just happy. 1188 00:56:18,748 --> 00:56:19,158 That's good. 1189 00:56:19,208 --> 00:56:20,078 That's good for consumers. 1190 00:56:20,108 --> 00:56:20,808 I'm a consumer. 1191 00:56:20,808 --> 00:56:23,718 I mean, I feel like on some level, like, I'm not sure. 1192 00:56:23,718 --> 00:56:28,028 I think, I think I might think of myself as like just a person first, like when 1193 00:56:28,028 --> 00:56:31,218 I, when I approach my business, because like, I am a client of my business as 1194 00:56:31,218 --> 00:56:32,648 are so many of my friends and family. 1195 00:56:33,008 --> 00:56:35,848 And it's very hard for me to make decisions that are like good for 1196 00:56:35,848 --> 00:56:39,008 my business, but like bad for me as a client and bad for my 1197 00:56:39,008 --> 00:56:40,872 parents or my, family and friends. 1198 00:56:40,872 --> 00:56:43,092 Like it's doesn't, it's hard to behave that way. 1199 00:56:43,092 --> 00:56:43,402 Right. 1200 00:56:43,472 --> 00:56:44,162 Like, I don't know. 1201 00:56:44,795 --> 00:56:49,845 But do you think, like, do you agree with the, that companies that are run 1202 00:56:49,845 --> 00:56:54,515 by actual Bitcoiners have a different approach to free market competition than, 1203 00:56:54,545 --> 00:57:00,080 than You know, Bitcoin companies run by fiat minded people, because I see a 1204 00:57:00,080 --> 00:57:04,320 difference there where the fiat minded people just want to, you know, shut the 1205 00:57:04,320 --> 00:57:10,510 competition out and fight the competition in a way that Bitcoiners true Bitcoiners 1206 00:57:10,510 --> 00:57:12,890 at heart, they don't do that in the same 1207 00:57:13,070 --> 00:57:16,780 We're caught in the no true Scotsman fallacy almost here, right, because 1208 00:57:17,190 --> 00:57:20,720 there are many examples of people who ostensibly are Bitcoiners and 1209 00:57:20,720 --> 00:57:24,640 operate Bitcoin companies who behave like asshats all the time and are 1210 00:57:24,705 --> 00:57:26,185 wouldn't call them Bitcoiners though. 1211 00:57:26,610 --> 00:57:27,320 exactly right. 1212 00:57:27,450 --> 00:57:29,340 So at that point you say, well, you've lost the mantle, 1213 00:57:29,370 --> 00:57:30,550 like because of your behavior. 1214 00:57:31,425 --> 00:57:33,875 So like, to a degree, I do agree with you, but at the same time, like, I 1215 00:57:33,885 --> 00:57:37,325 think there are examples of people who like, maybe they talk the talk, 1216 00:57:37,355 --> 00:57:38,495 but they haven't really got it right. 1217 00:57:38,495 --> 00:57:40,585 They haven't understood that, that, like, okay, fine. 1218 00:57:40,585 --> 00:57:42,255 I understand you compete with that business, but they're 1219 00:57:42,255 --> 00:57:43,195 such a great business. 1220 00:57:43,225 --> 00:57:46,603 Like, focus your negative attentions on some other problem, right? 1221 00:57:46,603 --> 00:57:46,983 It's like, 1222 00:57:47,833 --> 00:57:50,053 But that's what I view as a fiat mine. 1223 00:57:50,063 --> 00:57:54,373 Like they're in it for the fiat gains and not for the, not for the Bitcoin. 1224 00:57:54,626 --> 00:57:58,026 so they're in for the short term gains rather than the generational wealth 1225 00:57:58,366 --> 00:58:01,776 and building, building something robust for generations to come. 1226 00:58:02,096 --> 00:58:04,256 they're acting like a bitcoiner superficially, but they kind of 1227 00:58:04,266 --> 00:58:06,156 caught in a fiat mindset, perhaps. 1228 00:58:06,256 --> 00:58:07,076 Yeah, exactly. 1229 00:58:07,542 --> 00:58:11,300 yes, there was one other thing that I thought, uh, before this interview, I 1230 00:58:11,300 --> 00:58:15,750 stumbled on a video on your, on your Twitter page from BitBlockBoom, where 1231 00:58:15,750 --> 00:58:19,420 you talk about the, and I had to retweet it because I thought it was an amazing, 1232 00:58:19,850 --> 00:58:24,708 uh, explanation of Nakamoto Consensus, uh, do you remember what you said there? 1233 00:58:24,838 --> 00:58:25,338 Yes. 1234 00:58:25,678 --> 00:58:27,798 Can you give us the, the TLDR here? 1235 00:58:27,798 --> 00:58:33,377 Because, I just loved it, and I love every good framing of 1236 00:58:33,407 --> 00:58:35,247 whatever Satoshi stumbled upon. 1237 00:58:35,582 --> 00:58:36,422 Yeah, for sure. 1238 00:58:36,422 --> 00:58:37,582 No, I feel the same way. 1239 00:58:37,592 --> 00:58:40,791 I feel like, uh, there's room for a lot of people's books and 1240 00:58:40,801 --> 00:58:44,331 attitudes and explanations because there's, it's such a rich idea. 1241 00:58:44,631 --> 00:58:48,271 So I'm like you, every time someone says like, here's another way 1242 00:58:48,271 --> 00:58:49,671 to look at why that's valuable. 1243 00:58:49,671 --> 00:58:51,201 I'm like, yes, write that down. 1244 00:58:51,251 --> 00:58:51,761 That's great. 1245 00:58:51,891 --> 00:58:56,511 Um, so that was my attempt, perhaps that for myself, like coming up with how I was 1246 00:58:56,511 --> 00:58:59,701 feeling at the time after having done a sort of last year or so, I've been doing 1247 00:58:59,701 --> 00:59:03,736 a lot of, Reading and research on like the white paper and the references it 1248 00:59:03,736 --> 00:59:06,842 contains and kind of doing that proof of work for myself, like that I hadn't 1249 00:59:06,842 --> 00:59:10,032 really ever done before, like at that level of depth, um, because I've been 1250 00:59:10,032 --> 00:59:13,642 trying to write a little bit more of a historical piece and also a future looking 1251 00:59:13,642 --> 00:59:16,663 piece on kind of these ideas around markets and incentives and, it forced 1252 00:59:16,663 --> 00:59:18,153 me to want to like really check my work. 1253 00:59:18,403 --> 00:59:22,113 So in so doing, I kind of like, it changed the way I was actually 1254 00:59:22,153 --> 00:59:26,153 thinking about what was innovative, um, about what Satoshi accomplished, 1255 00:59:26,553 --> 00:59:27,733 because I think I didn't realize. 1256 00:59:28,783 --> 00:59:32,523 Until I did this work, like how much of Bitcoin had already been conceived of by 1257 00:59:32,723 --> 00:59:37,163 many other thinkers in the space, like Nick Szabo and Wei Dai and a bunch of 1258 00:59:37,163 --> 00:59:40,823 other players, like so many of the ideas, including things like a blockchain or 1259 00:59:40,853 --> 00:59:45,517 proof of work to create money supply or chains of, public key signatures as a way 1260 00:59:45,557 --> 00:59:49,298 to think about transactions, like all of these ideas are like old and existed, for 1261 00:59:49,298 --> 00:59:52,253 in fact a decade or more, and so I kind of found myself being like, well, what 1262 00:59:52,253 --> 00:59:54,283 did Satoshi do that was new and unique? 1263 00:59:54,648 --> 00:59:59,258 And for a while I assumed that it was the difficulty adjustment, because that's 1264 00:59:59,308 --> 01:00:02,688 a very sexy, cool, new idea in Bitcoin. 1265 01:00:03,045 --> 01:00:06,475 But after this work, I kind of came to the conclusion that even the difficulty 1266 01:00:06,475 --> 01:00:10,875 adjustment is actually the consequence of an earlier thing that Satoshi brought to 1267 01:00:10,875 --> 01:00:15,305 Bitcoin, and I was able to put it, when it sort of hit me, like, oh, obviously 1268 01:00:15,305 --> 01:00:19,575 this is the thing, like, Satoshi is the first person or entity or group, I always 1269 01:00:19,745 --> 01:00:23,603 force myself to like, try to remember, we don't know who they are, is the first time 1270 01:00:23,833 --> 01:00:26,183 that someone brought a monetary policy. 1271 01:00:26,408 --> 01:00:31,858 Into a digital currency that be money and bit gold and a bunch of these 1272 01:00:31,878 --> 01:00:33,358 projects that existed in the past. 1273 01:00:33,588 --> 01:00:37,308 Like they had made all these links between money and proof of work and all these 1274 01:00:37,468 --> 01:00:39,358 notions, but anybody could create money. 1275 01:00:39,624 --> 01:00:42,724 there was no rule to prevent that from happening. 1276 01:00:42,954 --> 01:00:44,564 If you did the work, you could create the money. 1277 01:00:44,752 --> 01:00:47,708 and I think what's remarkable is Satoshi decided, I don't like that. 1278 01:00:47,766 --> 01:00:49,636 I want there to be a finite supply of money. 1279 01:00:49,646 --> 01:00:52,648 That was a, that was a monetary goal, many people, I think, saw the 1280 01:00:52,658 --> 01:00:56,358 value of a digital currency, like to solve problems of censorship or, 1281 01:00:56,618 --> 01:01:00,528 you know, transaction utility or whatever, like those ideas were there. 1282 01:01:00,548 --> 01:01:00,878 Right? 1283 01:01:00,928 --> 01:01:04,475 and I think there was a thread of stronger monetary policy throughout 1284 01:01:04,475 --> 01:01:07,755 some of that, but it was a little bit more focused on the cypherpunk ethos 1285 01:01:07,755 --> 01:01:10,355 of like freedom and uncensorability. 1286 01:01:10,355 --> 01:01:10,370 Thank you. 1287 01:01:10,727 --> 01:01:14,637 Satoshi was the first to really bring, no, there has to be strong monetary policy. 1288 01:01:14,968 --> 01:01:18,987 and my claim is, I'm not making an Austrian claim about economics. 1289 01:01:19,007 --> 01:01:22,547 I'm not saying that Bitcoin won because of its strong monetary policy and 1290 01:01:22,547 --> 01:01:24,007 finite supply for economic reasons. 1291 01:01:24,017 --> 01:01:24,707 That might be true. 1292 01:01:24,849 --> 01:01:26,079 I'm not debating that point. 1293 01:01:26,079 --> 01:01:27,719 That, I think that is true. 1294 01:01:27,719 --> 01:01:31,409 I'm making a stronger claim, which is literally the technical underpinning. 1295 01:01:31,439 --> 01:01:33,439 Like, how do you get the code to do the thing? 1296 01:01:33,789 --> 01:01:34,129 Right? 1297 01:01:34,159 --> 01:01:38,059 Like, once you decide, I want there to be a finite money supply, 1298 01:01:38,569 --> 01:01:39,739 everything else falls out of that. 1299 01:01:40,019 --> 01:01:42,969 And it's my claim that if you were to be given B money, like the 1300 01:01:43,089 --> 01:01:46,219 proposal that was created by Wayguy for how to have an auction for the 1301 01:01:46,219 --> 01:01:47,929 creation of B money, etc, etc, etc. 1302 01:01:48,169 --> 01:01:49,609 In which anybody can create the money supplies. 1303 01:01:49,939 --> 01:01:54,819 If I gave you that paper and I said, hey, take this idea of Wayguy's and eliminate 1304 01:01:54,819 --> 01:01:56,739 the freedom of users to create money. 1305 01:01:56,877 --> 01:01:59,327 make the money created on this fixed schedule. 1306 01:01:59,762 --> 01:02:00,732 Because I want it to be that way. 1307 01:02:01,302 --> 01:02:03,892 If I gave you that goal, I think you would invent Bitcoin. 1308 01:02:04,239 --> 01:02:06,319 And I think that was like the path that Satoshi took. 1309 01:02:06,509 --> 01:02:08,519 And b money is the first reference in the white paper. 1310 01:02:08,879 --> 01:02:14,332 And Bitcoin is b money with the freedom for users to create money eliminated. 1311 01:02:14,488 --> 01:02:18,798 that's my one liner about what I, what I now think and in that clip that you 1312 01:02:18,798 --> 01:02:24,301 posted, I made the claim that it turns out that you get, Nakamoto consensus 1313 01:02:24,301 --> 01:02:27,331 and double spend protection and all these magical things like they just 1314 01:02:27,341 --> 01:02:31,061 fall out of the code as soon as you decide you want this monetary goal. 1315 01:02:31,486 --> 01:02:34,766 And that's the reason that it was Satoshi, this weird cypherpunk guy 1316 01:02:34,766 --> 01:02:38,186 who thought about money, who came up with Nakamoto Consensus and made that 1317 01:02:38,186 --> 01:02:41,426 breakthrough, and it wasn't a computer scientist working at the cutting edge 1318 01:02:41,426 --> 01:02:44,536 of distributed systems theory, because that person's goal, they didn't, they 1319 01:02:44,536 --> 01:02:47,616 weren't thinking about monetary policy, even if they knew about B money and they 1320 01:02:47,616 --> 01:02:51,736 thought about Byzantine problems, like, they wouldn't have made this, this leap. 1321 01:02:51,756 --> 01:02:57,066 It was Satoshi's, like, First desire for a monetary policy goal that then became 1322 01:02:57,066 --> 01:03:00,626 the essential technical simplification that caused everything else to show up. 1323 01:03:00,666 --> 01:03:01,546 That's, that's my claim. 1324 01:03:02,871 --> 01:03:04,021 Yeah, that's so cool. 1325 01:03:04,090 --> 01:03:08,552 and it's all because of this internal limits of the thing 1326 01:03:08,692 --> 01:03:13,222 that makes like the longest chain actually be the most valuable chain. 1327 01:03:14,482 --> 01:03:15,332 It's beautiful. 1328 01:03:15,562 --> 01:03:21,293 So to that point, was Bitcoin the first cryptocurrency or 1329 01:03:21,293 --> 01:03:22,303 is it the last cryptocurrency? 1330 01:03:24,947 --> 01:03:25,307 Both. 1331 01:03:25,657 --> 01:03:26,117 Why not? 1332 01:03:26,685 --> 01:03:30,715 I would say it's more of the last than the first, but okay, uh, is it 1333 01:03:31,095 --> 01:03:32,665 an invention or a discovery then? 1334 01:03:33,277 --> 01:03:35,237 Oh, definitely a discovery. 1335 01:03:36,032 --> 01:03:38,712 Yes, we agree 100 percent on that as well then. 1336 01:03:39,497 --> 01:03:40,787 And I think I've written about that. 1337 01:03:40,787 --> 01:03:43,487 I think fucking aliens have Bitcoin and it works the same way. 1338 01:03:43,697 --> 01:03:46,907 Maybe they don't have the different shah, you know, or hashing algorithm. 1339 01:03:46,917 --> 01:03:49,647 Maybe it's a different, you know, total supply curve, who 1340 01:03:49,647 --> 01:03:50,957 cares that those are details. 1341 01:03:51,007 --> 01:03:57,052 But I think the idea that you build a market that Has proof of work to, uh, to 1342 01:03:57,062 --> 01:04:02,352 record, you know, in a, in a, in a, uh, append only log, like the transactions 1343 01:04:02,362 --> 01:04:05,982 of a society in a way that solves these coordination problems is a discovery. 1344 01:04:06,052 --> 01:04:07,372 It's like discovering fusion. 1345 01:04:07,592 --> 01:04:10,237 It's like discovering So, uh, to You know, DNA. 1346 01:04:10,237 --> 01:04:12,007 It's like, it's like part of the world around us. 1347 01:04:12,247 --> 01:04:13,767 And we, we, we discovered it. 1348 01:04:14,335 --> 01:04:19,035 Okay, so friendly aliens come to our planet, you know, like the aliens in 1349 01:04:19,035 --> 01:04:21,635 boxes in Mexico, they were probably friendly, they look friendly. 1350 01:04:22,233 --> 01:04:26,803 They come here and they have their own version of Bitcoin, Bitcoin 1351 01:04:26,913 --> 01:04:27,783 called Bitcoin or something. 1352 01:04:28,063 --> 01:04:31,563 And their, their chain is longer than ours. 1353 01:04:32,383 --> 01:04:33,313 More proof of work. 1354 01:04:33,863 --> 01:04:34,553 What do we do? 1355 01:04:34,836 --> 01:04:35,776 what money wins? 1356 01:04:36,166 --> 01:04:37,186 Theirs or ours? 1357 01:04:37,776 --> 01:04:39,506 Would we, would we exchange it for theirs? 1358 01:04:39,971 --> 01:04:41,581 I mean, I've written a huge amount about this. 1359 01:04:41,581 --> 01:04:43,551 I thought about this question way too much. 1360 01:04:43,581 --> 01:04:46,931 I think for a person who lives in an era where humanity can barely 1361 01:04:46,931 --> 01:04:49,341 make it off the planet, like I thought about this too much. 1362 01:04:49,876 --> 01:04:51,766 It's quite an unlikely scenario. 1363 01:04:51,771 --> 01:04:52,351 Yes. 1364 01:04:52,401 --> 01:04:52,791 Yes. 1365 01:04:52,851 --> 01:04:54,651 Uh, I would say it depends, right? 1366 01:04:54,671 --> 01:04:57,911 Like, so a conclusion I also came to in, in those ponderings, which I, 1367 01:04:58,151 --> 01:05:00,851 if you Google Bitcoin astronomy, you will find the whole ridiculous series. 1368 01:05:01,230 --> 01:05:03,080 I think there's two ideas to play with. 1369 01:05:03,100 --> 01:05:08,180 One is that like blockchains like Bitcoin can exist or monetary systems, if you 1370 01:05:08,180 --> 01:05:11,810 like, or whatever, they can exist at separate points in space and that it's 1371 01:05:11,810 --> 01:05:16,840 kind of a stable concept that like, there's no reason to build another Bitcoin 1372 01:05:16,840 --> 01:05:20,460 blockchain here on earth, like for your special reason, like it makes no sense. 1373 01:05:20,460 --> 01:05:24,420 But if you go very, very far away, like there are challenges in using 1374 01:05:24,430 --> 01:05:27,300 Bitcoin or mining Bitcoin specifically, if you go very, very far away. 1375 01:05:27,300 --> 01:05:28,470 So it actually may make sense. 1376 01:05:28,684 --> 01:05:31,284 if you get, you know, light minutes or light years away from 1377 01:05:31,284 --> 01:05:32,894 Earth, like, yeah, you're going to need to build your own money. 1378 01:05:32,894 --> 01:05:33,424 Okay, I get that. 1379 01:05:33,424 --> 01:05:33,864 That makes sense. 1380 01:05:34,084 --> 01:05:37,944 And then there's the second idea of, well, actually, even in the same 1381 01:05:37,944 --> 01:05:42,254 place, it can kind of make sense, I think, to have a second kind of money, 1382 01:05:42,544 --> 01:05:44,784 but one that is, like, much larger. 1383 01:05:45,239 --> 01:05:48,599 So instead of having a block time of like 10 minutes like Bitcoin has, which is kind 1384 01:05:48,599 --> 01:05:53,689 of good for a planetary scale currency, what if you had a block time of 30 days? 1385 01:05:53,792 --> 01:05:58,552 now suddenly the scope or scale and energy budget and concerns and 1386 01:05:58,552 --> 01:06:01,172 time scale of this currency starts to look a little bit different. 1387 01:06:01,172 --> 01:06:05,350 It's not very practical anymore for A human economy of today, like on a planet, 1388 01:06:05,670 --> 01:06:10,500 but maybe it is perfect for a solar system wide economy where, you know, transactions 1389 01:06:10,500 --> 01:06:14,280 typically take centuries to confirm and that's okay because that's about how 1390 01:06:14,280 --> 01:06:18,360 long it takes to deliver, a gigaton of carbon, like around the solar system. 1391 01:06:18,420 --> 01:06:21,580 So there's these two ideas of chains that can exist simultaneously that 1392 01:06:21,580 --> 01:06:23,410 are far away, but also larger. 1393 01:06:24,060 --> 01:06:27,480 So coming back to your question, they show up and they have more hashrate than us. 1394 01:06:27,480 --> 01:06:30,640 Well, I guess it would depend which kind of blockchain we're talking about. 1395 01:06:30,660 --> 01:06:33,680 Is it their home planet's blockchain, which is infinitely far away 1396 01:06:33,680 --> 01:06:35,060 from us and has higher hashrate? 1397 01:06:35,060 --> 01:06:35,870 Okay, we don't give a shit. 1398 01:06:35,939 --> 01:06:37,189 they're here on Bitcoin land. 1399 01:06:37,189 --> 01:06:39,869 Now they're playing by our rules because hashrate is suppressed 1400 01:06:39,869 --> 01:06:41,139 exponentially as you get further away. 1401 01:06:41,139 --> 01:06:43,079 That's like one of the first results that I share in that series. 1402 01:06:43,309 --> 01:06:46,619 Conversely, If their blockchain is a galactic blockchain or some ridiculous 1403 01:06:46,619 --> 01:06:50,079 idea, and we're actually inside of it right now, and we didn't realize that, 1404 01:06:50,259 --> 01:06:52,859 and it has a higher hash rate than we do, well then yeah, you're going 1405 01:06:52,859 --> 01:06:56,199 to start to expect to see our guys starting to mine that, you know, parent 1406 01:06:56,249 --> 01:06:57,279 chain that we're sitting inside of. 1407 01:06:57,279 --> 01:06:57,409 Bitcoin 1408 01:06:58,139 --> 01:07:01,609 I absolutely love that answer because like, that's one of the 1409 01:07:01,639 --> 01:07:05,419 concepts that the people don't think about is the hash horizon. 1410 01:07:05,699 --> 01:07:08,879 And for instance, Bitcoin could not work on Mars. 1411 01:07:09,150 --> 01:07:14,021 and therefore They would need their own, their own blockchain, and 1412 01:07:14,021 --> 01:07:17,061 that can't function because they're basically creating a shitcoin. 1413 01:07:17,361 --> 01:07:20,241 So the way I put it in one of the books was the one short 1414 01:07:20,241 --> 01:07:23,831 principle, like the, maybe we've heard it, absolute mathematical 1415 01:07:23,831 --> 01:07:25,481 scarcity achieved by consensus. 1416 01:07:25,596 --> 01:07:28,806 in a sufficiently decentralized distributed network was a 1417 01:07:28,806 --> 01:07:30,536 discovery rather than an invention. 1418 01:07:30,776 --> 01:07:35,346 It cannot be achieved again by a network made up of participants aware of this 1419 01:07:35,346 --> 01:07:39,696 discovery, since the very thing discovered was resistance to replicability itself. 1420 01:07:39,936 --> 01:07:44,425 So in my mind, it's the awareness of the original thing. 1421 01:07:44,586 --> 01:07:49,286 That prevents it from happening again, because all of the, all of the people 1422 01:07:49,286 --> 01:07:53,776 aware of Bitcoin have insider information as to how, how this would play out. 1423 01:07:54,302 --> 01:07:56,042 So that's why it can't play out again. 1424 01:07:56,042 --> 01:07:57,532 That's the immaculate conception. 1425 01:07:57,822 --> 01:08:01,942 And everything in Bitcoin plays, like it's, if you take 1426 01:08:01,942 --> 01:08:03,292 a shower and use a towel. 1427 01:08:03,542 --> 01:08:05,132 You get one result, you get dry. 1428 01:08:05,362 --> 01:08:08,092 If you use the towel first and take a shower afterwards, 1429 01:08:08,092 --> 01:08:09,642 you get a different result. 1430 01:08:09,672 --> 01:08:13,762 So, like, the chain of events that actually played out 1431 01:08:13,812 --> 01:08:15,412 play a huge part in Bitcoin. 1432 01:08:15,722 --> 01:08:18,882 And we don't know if it would have existed at all if we just 1433 01:08:18,942 --> 01:08:21,432 changed the tiniest parameter. 1434 01:08:21,432 --> 01:08:23,792 So, in my mind, it's just like the universe and the 1435 01:08:23,792 --> 01:08:25,032 constants of the universe. 1436 01:08:25,302 --> 01:08:28,852 We don't know if we destroy the entire thing, if the model 1437 01:08:28,892 --> 01:08:31,032 have been just like in a... 1438 01:08:31,642 --> 01:08:35,724 infinitesimally small, digit of pi or something. 1439 01:08:35,724 --> 01:08:38,564 If that was changed, there might not have been a universe at all. 1440 01:08:38,854 --> 01:08:42,856 And I think the same is true for, for Bitcoin, that if one of the 1441 01:08:42,886 --> 01:08:47,141 parameters, if, what, The target was 12 minutes between blocks. 1442 01:08:47,181 --> 01:08:49,741 The whole thing might, might have fallen apart. 1443 01:08:50,251 --> 01:08:55,551 And Yeah, and if Satoshi hadn't waited for the second miner to come online 1444 01:08:55,551 --> 01:08:59,661 for two weeks before he started mining, it might not have worked at all. 1445 01:08:59,951 --> 01:09:01,061 We don't know any of this. 1446 01:09:01,711 --> 01:09:06,971 All we know is that it works now and we can observe it and, uh, yeah, and 1447 01:09:06,971 --> 01:09:08,591 that's why it's so insanely fascinating. 1448 01:09:08,771 --> 01:09:12,606 But I think, I think also there's this notion of like, We're so early that 1449 01:09:12,606 --> 01:09:17,716 we barely understand it, you know, I think, like, 300 years from now and 1450 01:09:17,716 --> 01:09:21,986 Bitcoin has been ascendant for centuries and everyone assumes this is how it 1451 01:09:21,986 --> 01:09:25,586 always worked, it's so fucking obvious that Bitcoin, da da da da da, like, 1452 01:09:25,586 --> 01:09:30,241 I think our level of understanding of All of this will be higher, right? 1453 01:09:30,241 --> 01:09:33,732 To the point where, potentially we will have an engineering discipline 1454 01:09:33,762 --> 01:09:37,182 of like, okay, how do you launch a completely market driven, 1455 01:09:37,492 --> 01:09:39,652 decentralized system to solve a problem? 1456 01:09:39,682 --> 01:09:41,792 Like, you follow this methodology, right? 1457 01:09:41,861 --> 01:09:43,151 it's just engineering at that point. 1458 01:09:44,501 --> 01:09:48,841 in our grandchildren's minds, us three here, this conversation 1459 01:09:48,841 --> 01:09:49,961 will be drooling idiots. 1460 01:09:50,191 --> 01:09:50,461 Like, 1461 01:09:50,841 --> 01:09:51,811 yes, exactly. 1462 01:09:52,091 --> 01:09:52,381 Yeah. 1463 01:09:53,131 --> 01:09:54,271 there's no way around that. 1464 01:09:54,571 --> 01:09:58,831 So I hope at least has entertainment value to them so they can laugh at us. 1465 01:10:00,571 --> 01:10:04,361 But the thing about the awareness, if we go back to the alien thing, uh, 1466 01:10:04,681 --> 01:10:09,166 That's why I think you couldn't really bootstrap, a galactic blockchain after 1467 01:10:09,166 --> 01:10:10,606 you found it for your own planet. 1468 01:10:10,996 --> 01:10:14,236 And you probably couldn't build a galactic civilization before 1469 01:10:14,236 --> 01:10:15,406 you found it on your planet. 1470 01:10:15,406 --> 01:10:15,706 Right? 1471 01:10:16,556 --> 01:10:18,926 So it might not work at all on a galactic scale. 1472 01:10:20,306 --> 01:10:21,266 Who knows, man? 1473 01:10:21,286 --> 01:10:22,276 Who has any idea? 1474 01:10:22,416 --> 01:10:29,416 I think in my suppositions, what I took to be a path was, like, we would, through 1475 01:10:29,416 --> 01:10:33,026 this engineering discipline, like, if there are problems that that thing solves, 1476 01:10:33,366 --> 01:10:37,286 that we couldn't solve with Bitcoin, because Bitcoin is inherently finite and 1477 01:10:37,286 --> 01:10:41,166 a certain size and built for a certain scale, which is to say the scale of 1478 01:10:41,166 --> 01:10:46,416 planet Earth, um, um, Maybe it solves a problem and then maybe we would build it. 1479 01:10:46,416 --> 01:10:50,226 And so I spent a lot of time trying to justify to myself why, if you're 1480 01:10:50,226 --> 01:10:54,386 sufficiently far away, you struggle to use Bitcoin and therefore you have 1481 01:10:54,386 --> 01:10:58,696 a real problem that you can solve by replicating a new version of Bitcoin. 1482 01:10:58,896 --> 01:11:00,996 And to me, this is, this is a fun experiment at work because when 1483 01:11:00,996 --> 01:11:03,636 I first had these ideas and I was like tossing around to my, you 1484 01:11:03,636 --> 01:11:05,266 know, my Bitcoin maxi colleagues. 1485 01:11:05,566 --> 01:11:07,156 They're like, fuck you, dude, you shit coiner. 1486 01:11:07,256 --> 01:11:08,296 Like, what are you talking about? 1487 01:11:08,296 --> 01:11:11,336 Like, but then it took a little while to say, well, no, there's one, there's 1488 01:11:11,336 --> 01:11:15,666 one difference, which is I'm talking about doing this so far away that 1489 01:11:16,206 --> 01:11:18,156 like, that's a meaningful new idea. 1490 01:11:18,226 --> 01:11:18,516 Right. 1491 01:11:18,536 --> 01:11:21,316 That like, it's not like, it's not like, oh, Bitcoin is 1492 01:11:21,326 --> 01:11:22,756 imperfect in this one tiny way. 1493 01:11:22,756 --> 01:11:24,326 I want to change this one thing about it. 1494 01:11:24,336 --> 01:11:25,496 And that's why I'm going to succeed. 1495 01:11:25,506 --> 01:11:26,376 It's like, that's not, that's never 1496 01:11:26,436 --> 01:11:27,156 No, no. 1497 01:11:27,366 --> 01:11:29,766 But that, But that, is the awareness part. 1498 01:11:29,976 --> 01:11:34,206 That is the awareness because it has to be far, far away enough for, for 1499 01:11:34,206 --> 01:11:35,886 there to not be an awareness about it. 1500 01:11:36,186 --> 01:11:40,506 Like, uh, so, so that's part of the hash horizon in that stance in my mind. 1501 01:11:40,536 --> 01:11:46,375 Uh, and, uh, Why, why it can't be, This is one of those abstract concepts that 1502 01:11:46,375 --> 01:11:50,945 I just, simply just love because it's so bizarre and yet so fun to think about. 1503 01:11:50,945 --> 01:11:51,095 It's 1504 01:11:51,250 --> 01:11:54,530 it was a fun argument that we, I think we did a poll was like. 1505 01:11:54,810 --> 01:11:57,660 You know, if you were to live on Mars, would you prefer, like, would you 1506 01:11:57,660 --> 01:12:00,047 join the Mars new coin revolution? 1507 01:12:00,067 --> 01:12:03,097 Like, yeah, whatever, like, would you, I think I called it a must coin revolution, 1508 01:12:03,097 --> 01:12:05,047 which I'm unhappy about now, but whatever. 1509 01:12:05,237 --> 01:12:09,417 Um, it's like, would you be a Bitcoin, like, Tory, or would you go support 1510 01:12:09,447 --> 01:12:10,807 must coin and be a revolutionary? 1511 01:12:10,807 --> 01:12:13,337 That was the, that was the question we asked, and it was fun, man. 1512 01:12:13,337 --> 01:12:16,137 People argued about it for a while, because it's interesting, right? 1513 01:12:16,137 --> 01:12:19,197 Like, you, you feel like a shit coiner saying, well, no, I wouldn't want to 1514 01:12:19,197 --> 01:12:22,532 use Bitcoin in that situation, but it's an interesting, I think, Litmus 1515 01:12:22,552 --> 01:12:25,774 test of are you the kind of person that believes Bitcoin is the solution 1516 01:12:25,774 --> 01:12:29,884 to literally the entire universe's needs to exchange economic value? 1517 01:12:29,914 --> 01:12:33,084 Or do you accept that there actually may be some limitations potentially? 1518 01:12:33,384 --> 01:12:34,364 It's an interesting question. 1519 01:12:35,054 --> 01:12:38,914 But the thing, the answer I would give to that is like, I wouldn't use Bitcoin 1520 01:12:39,044 --> 01:12:41,894 because I couldn't trust it, because I couldn't verify it, blah, blah, blah. 1521 01:12:42,394 --> 01:12:48,014 Uh, but I definitely wouldn't use fucking musk coin or any other, any other shit 1522 01:12:48,044 --> 01:12:54,494 coin, even if it was newly minted and created on Mars, because everyone on 1523 01:12:54,494 --> 01:13:00,753 Mars using that cryptocurrency, for lack of a better word, Would be aware 1524 01:13:00,753 --> 01:13:04,203 of Bitcoin and therefore they would have insider information and there would 1525 01:13:04,223 --> 01:13:08,533 be a mining cabal and everything would be fucked from the get go, probably. 1526 01:13:09,123 --> 01:13:11,763 Yeah, it's, it's a fun, it's a fun thing to hypothesize over. 1527 01:13:12,093 --> 01:13:12,563 I like it. 1528 01:13:13,263 --> 01:13:16,613 Yes, we have to continue that conversation at one point. 1529 01:13:16,703 --> 01:13:19,173 Luke, do you have any final questions for Dhruv? 1530 01:13:19,468 --> 01:13:21,288 Because I think this is a good end point. 1531 01:13:21,973 --> 01:13:22,383 Sure. 1532 01:13:22,383 --> 01:13:25,613 Well, then I won't take us down any completely new rabbit holes. 1533 01:13:25,663 --> 01:13:29,813 Uh, do you see any threats to Bitcoin? 1534 01:13:29,813 --> 01:13:34,013 And I'm talking long term because we take the philosophical long view here. 1535 01:13:34,013 --> 01:13:37,663 Do you see anything that would prevent Bitcoin from fulfilling its mission? 1536 01:13:38,851 --> 01:13:39,121 Yeah. 1537 01:13:39,121 --> 01:13:44,844 I mean, I see, I think there's always A worry due to the nature of computing 1538 01:13:44,844 --> 01:13:47,484 and so on, it's really hard to eradicate this worry that there is some sort of 1539 01:13:47,484 --> 01:13:48,844 weird ass bug somewhere in Bitcoin. 1540 01:13:49,534 --> 01:13:51,464 Like, this is something I've always worried about, right? 1541 01:13:51,464 --> 01:13:54,274 And I think the more time that passes, the less likely that is. 1542 01:13:54,421 --> 01:13:58,731 in 2013, Like there, we know now there were bugs in Bitcoin and 1543 01:13:58,731 --> 01:14:00,341 we removed some of them, right? 1544 01:14:00,401 --> 01:14:01,381 Um, and that's good. 1545 01:14:01,591 --> 01:14:03,231 As time goes on, I think that's less and less likely, but 1546 01:14:03,231 --> 01:14:04,131 it's always sort of present. 1547 01:14:04,171 --> 01:14:06,581 And it's always one of those, like, I bet there'll be science fiction 1548 01:14:06,581 --> 01:14:10,941 movies in like 30, 40 years, like a flaw was discovered in Bitcoin. 1549 01:14:10,951 --> 01:14:11,641 Oh my God. 1550 01:14:11,661 --> 01:14:15,411 Like now it's, it's an interesting, fun thing to play about, but I don't actually 1551 01:14:15,411 --> 01:14:17,161 assign that a high degree of likelihood. 1552 01:14:17,171 --> 01:14:19,331 It would be catastrophic, but, but low likelihood. 1553 01:14:19,938 --> 01:14:20,558 I think. 1554 01:14:21,113 --> 01:14:22,873 Um, and this next one I'll answer in two parts. 1555 01:14:22,873 --> 01:14:26,453 I think things like quantum computing, they're not an existential threat 1556 01:14:26,453 --> 01:14:30,033 to Bitcoin itself, but they're a change that Bitcoin will have to 1557 01:14:30,033 --> 01:14:31,533 adapt to in some meaningful way. 1558 01:14:31,843 --> 01:14:36,823 And it's hard to change Bitcoin, like where anytime anybody talks about, hey, 1559 01:14:36,823 --> 01:14:40,243 I want to make this change in Bitcoin or whatever else, like, it's very 1560 01:14:40,283 --> 01:14:41,273 hard to get through that discussion. 1561 01:14:41,553 --> 01:14:42,623 And I think that's a good thing. 1562 01:14:42,643 --> 01:14:45,113 I don't think it should be easy to get through that discussion, but I 1563 01:14:45,133 --> 01:14:49,714 also, as much as I might believe in ossification, on some timeline, it's 1564 01:14:49,714 --> 01:14:53,314 not today or yesterday that we've also like, we still need to make some changes. 1565 01:14:53,334 --> 01:14:57,224 And I'm not the expert, I'm not expert enough to say exactly which ones, but I do 1566 01:14:57,224 --> 01:14:58,664 know that some things will need to change. 1567 01:14:59,524 --> 01:15:03,154 Um, hopefully minor, like smaller and smaller and smaller things over time. 1568 01:15:03,154 --> 01:15:05,974 There's a concept of Kelvin numbering, which I think informs a 1569 01:15:05,974 --> 01:15:07,454 lot of my thinking on this topic. 1570 01:15:07,954 --> 01:15:11,524 Um, But with that said, it's like, okay, how does Bitcoin adapt to 1571 01:15:11,524 --> 01:15:15,964 the sudden creation of real quantum computers, which are totally happening. 1572 01:15:16,014 --> 01:15:18,604 I think there's a lot of Bitcoiners who have their head in the sand about this and 1573 01:15:18,644 --> 01:15:22,634 refuse to accept that it's a real thing because they don't like the consequences, 1574 01:15:22,834 --> 01:15:24,544 which is we have to then come up with. 1575 01:15:25,214 --> 01:15:26,964 Decisions about what we're going to do. 1576 01:15:27,184 --> 01:15:32,284 We could do nothing and let Satoshi's P2PK coins be a giant bounty for 1577 01:15:32,284 --> 01:15:33,394 the world's first quantum computer. 1578 01:15:33,444 --> 01:15:34,104 That is an option. 1579 01:15:34,274 --> 01:15:36,234 That is, in fact, what's going to happen if we take no action. 1580 01:15:36,624 --> 01:15:37,174 Totally fine. 1581 01:15:37,544 --> 01:15:42,554 And then now transactions are, are, um, potentially stealable by quantum computers 1582 01:15:42,624 --> 01:15:46,383 while they've been broadcast because, we've broken the hash open and now 1583 01:15:46,393 --> 01:15:48,203 public key cryptography can be changed. 1584 01:15:48,213 --> 01:15:53,297 Like we have to move to some post quantum, um, Uh, public key encryption scheme, 1585 01:15:53,317 --> 01:15:56,676 if we really want to be, have strength, against resisting quantum computations. 1586 01:15:56,966 --> 01:16:00,016 Frankly, I think bitcoiners will be the ones to like actually promote things like 1587 01:16:00,016 --> 01:16:04,106 lattice computations or other current, like, post quantum algorithms that 1588 01:16:04,106 --> 01:16:08,683 are, Not in widespread usage, because truthfully, there's not a lot to be gained 1589 01:16:08,683 --> 01:16:11,463 from actually building quantum resistant anything today, because quantum computers 1590 01:16:11,473 --> 01:16:15,283 aren't that powerful, and no one gives a shit, credit cards have like 30 percent 1591 01:16:15,283 --> 01:16:18,843 fraud all the time anyway, so I think it's actually bitcoiners who are going 1592 01:16:18,843 --> 01:16:22,393 to solve this post quantum computing like problem, because we have the most to lose, 1593 01:16:22,783 --> 01:16:25,971 but it is something we're going to have to solve, and if you think about Thank okay, 1594 01:16:26,051 --> 01:16:28,191 again, how do we make changes in Bitcoin? 1595 01:16:28,241 --> 01:16:29,101 We're not good at it. 1596 01:16:29,101 --> 01:16:30,841 And that's probably a good thing that we're not good at it. 1597 01:16:30,841 --> 01:16:32,101 Like, these are some of the things I worry about. 1598 01:16:32,181 --> 01:16:34,411 I don't, again, I don't think this is an existential problem. 1599 01:16:34,451 --> 01:16:36,951 I think we will figure this out cause we will have to figure it out. 1600 01:16:36,971 --> 01:16:39,971 And we're good at solving problems when we have to as a community. 1601 01:16:40,171 --> 01:16:44,541 Like it sort of creates that pressure to just figure it out and get it done. 1602 01:16:44,724 --> 01:16:45,924 so those are modest worries. 1603 01:16:46,281 --> 01:16:50,161 I, it's hard for me to really think of something that is like an existential 1604 01:16:50,161 --> 01:16:53,850 risk to Bitcoin And then I don't think the community has already talked about or 1605 01:16:53,850 --> 01:16:55,340 thought about or has some kinds of plans. 1606 01:16:55,420 --> 01:16:56,670 And even if it's like, oh, the government's going to 1607 01:16:56,680 --> 01:16:57,590 fight, it's like, they're not. 1608 01:16:58,220 --> 01:17:01,040 They might try a little bit, but like, the government is just people, man. 1609 01:17:01,190 --> 01:17:03,770 They own Bitcoin, some of them, like, and more of them every day. 1610 01:17:04,180 --> 01:17:08,941 So I, I don't tend not to worry about those kinds of, Failure modes very much. 1611 01:17:09,112 --> 01:17:10,997 like to me, there's, have it. 1612 01:17:10,997 --> 01:17:13,137 It's not like, it's not like, it's like, it's like a struggle. 1613 01:17:13,187 --> 01:17:13,947 Let's put it that way. 1614 01:17:13,947 --> 01:17:17,317 Like, I, I don't, I'm not claiming that there's some like existential problem that 1615 01:17:17,317 --> 01:17:20,117 we need to worry about that like causes Bitcoin as a project not to succeed. 1616 01:17:20,147 --> 01:17:23,957 I am articulating that there will be some monstrous struggles still in front of 1617 01:17:23,957 --> 01:17:28,273 us, as a community before we're going, before we're going to, before Bitcoin 1618 01:17:28,303 --> 01:17:31,323 can be the thing that we need it to be at a global scale, et cetera, et cetera. 1619 01:17:32,173 --> 01:17:38,633 So, uh, but with the quantum computing thing, uh, that attack vector, the way 1620 01:17:38,633 --> 01:17:43,003 I see it, like in Bitcoin, at least we have 10 minutes to fix the problem, but 1621 01:17:43,003 --> 01:17:45,123 the traditional banking sector is just 1622 01:17:45,543 --> 01:17:46,393 No, they're, they're screwed. 1623 01:17:46,423 --> 01:17:46,913 They're screwed. 1624 01:17:46,953 --> 01:17:47,473 They're screwed. 1625 01:17:47,473 --> 01:17:47,548 They're screwed. 1626 01:17:47,733 --> 01:17:53,023 So, so we have, if it happens anytime soon, the world has way bigger problems 1627 01:17:53,063 --> 01:17:57,403 than Bitcoin to worry about at that point, because everything, everything is fucked. 1628 01:17:58,118 --> 01:18:00,238 well, yeah, yeah, I totally, totally agree with that, but I 1629 01:18:00,248 --> 01:18:01,378 would also put it oppositely. 1630 01:18:01,378 --> 01:18:04,938 I would say, yet, whoever has quantum computers and seeks to behave 1631 01:18:04,948 --> 01:18:06,728 adversarially will come for Bitcoin first. 1632 01:18:07,016 --> 01:18:10,700 even though other things might be easier to attack, Bitcoin is more valuable. 1633 01:18:11,989 --> 01:18:14,079 Well, not if it's not quantum resistant though. 1634 01:18:14,499 --> 01:18:20,261 So it's sort of a catch 22, because it's sort of why, like, miners can't 1635 01:18:20,271 --> 01:18:26,441 act in their own self interest, because it's like alchemy, if alchemists had 1636 01:18:26,441 --> 01:18:31,421 been successful and found a cheap way to produce no gold, which in a 1637 01:18:31,421 --> 01:18:32,891 way central bankers did, you know. 1638 01:18:32,891 --> 01:18:32,931 So, yeah. 1639 01:18:33,171 --> 01:18:37,191 They destroyed the value of gold, so the central bank has destroyed 1640 01:18:37,191 --> 01:18:38,181 the value of the fiat currencies. 1641 01:18:38,655 --> 01:18:43,135 this idea might be hard to follow, but if you can cheat the rules in 1642 01:18:43,135 --> 01:18:48,235 Bitcoin, you destroy its value, because it's not valuable anymore 1643 01:18:48,245 --> 01:18:49,575 if someone can hack it, right? 1644 01:18:50,385 --> 01:18:54,085 Then it would instantly drop to zero, so you would have to pull it off 1645 01:18:54,665 --> 01:18:56,415 without revealing that you pulled it 1646 01:18:56,575 --> 01:18:58,735 No, I think it's a little bit more complex, right, because 1647 01:18:58,735 --> 01:18:59,745 there's a timeline there. 1648 01:18:59,795 --> 01:19:03,645 Like, I think there's an attacker in the future who values Bitcoin, who 1649 01:19:03,685 --> 01:19:07,535 understands that Bitcoiners are working on solutions for post quantum computing, 1650 01:19:07,825 --> 01:19:11,265 but they've underestimated the rate of progress, and this person can steal 1651 01:19:11,265 --> 01:19:13,055 some Bitcoin, they're gonna do it. 1652 01:19:13,355 --> 01:19:17,525 And even if it causes a market crash, They might have confidence that eventually 1653 01:19:17,525 --> 01:19:21,065 Bitcoin will figure out post quantum shit or take the post quantum forks 1654 01:19:21,065 --> 01:19:24,565 that are brewing or conversations and make those real, and I can make a little 1655 01:19:24,565 --> 01:19:25,805 bit of money here in the middle, right? 1656 01:19:26,315 --> 01:19:31,215 Yeah, but what I'm saying is that they couldn't steal very much, because if they, 1657 01:19:31,345 --> 01:19:36,195 if they stole like a million coins, then, then, then everyone would abandon ship. 1658 01:19:36,335 --> 01:19:36,865 Like, this 1659 01:19:37,015 --> 01:19:37,575 pause there. 1660 01:19:38,215 --> 01:19:41,075 I in general agree, right, that they wouldn't do that, but then the question 1661 01:19:41,075 --> 01:19:43,245 to me is what about Satoshi's P2PK coins? 1662 01:19:44,145 --> 01:19:45,235 Like, they're just sitting there. 1663 01:19:45,615 --> 01:19:46,545 oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 1664 01:19:46,925 --> 01:19:48,705 They would probably go for those first. 1665 01:19:48,705 --> 01:19:52,775 But, oh, so here's, here's an interesting follow up question. 1666 01:19:52,775 --> 01:19:58,630 Is there a, A game theoretical way to figure out what the, what the amount of 1667 01:19:58,670 --> 01:20:02,870 coins they could actually steal without destroying the value is, like, is there, 1668 01:20:02,890 --> 01:20:04,400 like, could they steal a hundred coins? 1669 01:20:04,790 --> 01:20:06,020 Is it 0. 1670 01:20:06,020 --> 01:20:06,320 1 coins? 1671 01:20:06,790 --> 01:20:07,930 Is it a million coins? 1672 01:20:08,590 --> 01:20:09,480 Well, it depends. 1673 01:20:09,610 --> 01:20:14,300 I guess it's all subjective and Bitcoiners would react differently to it. 1674 01:20:14,330 --> 01:20:16,020 Some, some would abandon ship. 1675 01:20:16,320 --> 01:20:18,900 Others would say, no, I still believe in Bitcoin. 1676 01:20:19,377 --> 01:20:23,023 If they target someone who won't notice if, if they, if they steal from someone 1677 01:20:23,023 --> 01:20:24,793 who won't notice for a while, then 1678 01:20:24,978 --> 01:20:29,178 No, but other people might notice, like, there are a lot of people 1679 01:20:29,188 --> 01:20:32,618 monitoring the blockchain, and if they see something odd, they may 1680 01:20:32,933 --> 01:20:35,153 Well that's why you don't steal Satoshi's keys though. 1681 01:20:35,153 --> 01:20:38,843 If you steal, if you, if you steal Satoshi's coins, right? 1682 01:20:38,993 --> 01:20:43,343 Everyone knows who those are, but if you just steal some random coin. 1683 01:20:44,136 --> 01:20:45,536 Yeah, but that's sort of my point. 1684 01:20:45,896 --> 01:20:48,146 In that case, it would have to be a small amount, 1685 01:20:48,859 --> 01:20:49,079 Well 1686 01:20:49,169 --> 01:20:50,019 the further 1687 01:20:50,059 --> 01:20:50,339 Yeah. 1688 01:20:51,055 --> 01:20:54,855 yeah, the further you get into Bitcoin's history, the smaller the amounts become. 1689 01:20:55,455 --> 01:20:56,165 Inevitably. 1690 01:20:56,730 --> 01:20:59,130 But I think, but that's, that's kind of what worries me about this whole 1691 01:20:59,130 --> 01:21:03,880 scenario is because say we as a community do nothing, eventually someone 1692 01:21:03,880 --> 01:21:07,760 will have quantum computers powerful enough to steal Satoshi's P2PK coins. 1693 01:21:08,350 --> 01:21:12,230 And I don't trust that no one will do it because it would ruin the 1694 01:21:12,230 --> 01:21:13,460 value of the thing that they stole. 1695 01:21:13,460 --> 01:21:16,860 I think people like to poke buttons and break things and. 1696 01:21:17,585 --> 01:21:20,195 We need to understand as a community, like what, what are we 1697 01:21:20,195 --> 01:21:22,125 prepared to do in this situation? 1698 01:21:22,165 --> 01:21:25,685 I think the most conservative and minimal thing is do nothing, let 1699 01:21:25,685 --> 01:21:27,225 them steal the coins, let it happen. 1700 01:21:27,235 --> 01:21:27,965 We don't care. 1701 01:21:28,595 --> 01:21:33,945 Isn't the denial of the SegWit2x hard fork a proof against that? 1702 01:21:34,015 --> 01:21:39,045 That people do not break things if they stand to lose a lot of money from it? 1703 01:21:39,715 --> 01:21:42,255 Sort of, except because hard fork is a thing that the whole 1704 01:21:42,255 --> 01:21:43,935 community has to do, right? 1705 01:21:44,385 --> 01:21:48,145 Issuing one transaction to steal a bunch of UTXOs into your own 1706 01:21:48,145 --> 01:21:50,575 wallet is something one person can do if they have a quantum computer. 1707 01:21:51,065 --> 01:21:54,365 Now, maybe the argument is that no, no one person will have that quantum computer, 1708 01:21:54,365 --> 01:21:55,585 but eventually someone will, right? 1709 01:21:55,585 --> 01:21:59,105 If we change absolutely nothing, and quantum computing keeps accelerating, 1710 01:21:59,265 --> 01:22:02,275 and qubits become cheaper and cheaper, someone will eventually have that ability. 1711 01:22:02,601 --> 01:22:06,561 And that actor might not even be aware of the risk of destroying 1712 01:22:06,731 --> 01:22:07,941 the value of Bitcoin in the 1713 01:22:08,031 --> 01:22:09,761 This might not give a shit, right? 1714 01:22:09,761 --> 01:22:11,401 Like, I, who knows, right? 1715 01:22:11,431 --> 01:22:13,921 Like, and so part of me is like, I don't know what the right answer is. 1716 01:22:13,921 --> 01:22:17,901 On some level, I would like to live in a world where it was easy to do 1717 01:22:17,901 --> 01:22:22,021 something akin to, okay, look, where as of this date, you have, One year 1718 01:22:22,021 --> 01:22:25,851 or this many blocks, you have 200, 000 blocks to get rid of your P2PK outputs. 1719 01:22:25,871 --> 01:22:28,761 And as of this date, they will no longer be real outputs or like, 1720 01:22:28,761 --> 01:22:30,951 we'll have some philosophy around it, but that's, that's a change. 1721 01:22:30,961 --> 01:22:34,169 And that's, I think, I think that's a hard fork that's backwards incompatible, dah. 1722 01:22:34,170 --> 01:22:37,150 So it would be incredibly controversial to do something like that. 1723 01:22:37,340 --> 01:22:39,020 And I'm not necessarily proposing that we do that. 1724 01:22:39,020 --> 01:22:42,920 I'm just pointing out that would be one strategy to avoid this pool 1725 01:22:42,920 --> 01:22:45,710 of P2PK coins just sitting there waiting for quantum computer. 1726 01:22:46,350 --> 01:22:52,019 But at the same time, What an incredibly, hard conversation that will be, right, 1727 01:22:52,059 --> 01:22:55,519 is to tell all the Bitcoin owners of the world, Hey, you can no longer 1728 01:22:55,519 --> 01:22:58,659 use this script type that has been in existence since the very beginning. 1729 01:22:59,052 --> 01:23:02,422 you must now do this other thing, and in fact, existing coins on the chain, 1730 01:23:02,432 --> 01:23:06,862 like Satoshis, that are unlikely to move, will be dealt with somehow. 1731 01:23:06,862 --> 01:23:09,052 Those UTXOs will be dealt with in some way that I don't know. 1732 01:23:09,142 --> 01:23:11,562 Like, that's a very hard conversation to even begin to have. 1733 01:23:11,562 --> 01:23:12,732 No one wants to have that conversation. 1734 01:23:13,757 --> 01:23:17,177 I'm, I'm not very technical, but, but hear me out. 1735 01:23:17,227 --> 01:23:22,487 Like, uh, is this, is this something that could be solved by Bitcoin 1736 01:23:22,887 --> 01:23:27,417 migrating the, the source code migrating to another programming language? 1737 01:23:27,688 --> 01:23:28,078 Does that, 1738 01:23:28,123 --> 01:23:30,393 Not, not, not, not, uh, not really. 1739 01:23:30,393 --> 01:23:33,593 I think maybe what more what you're searching for is could we, could we 1740 01:23:33,831 --> 01:23:38,521 add quantum resistant encryption into Bitcoin so that all new transactions 1741 01:23:38,691 --> 01:23:40,501 are resistant to quantum computers? 1742 01:23:40,501 --> 01:23:41,501 I think that is possible. 1743 01:23:41,721 --> 01:23:43,031 It's not really a programming language question. 1744 01:23:43,041 --> 01:23:43,981 It's an algorithms question. 1745 01:23:43,981 --> 01:23:47,831 Basically, ECDSA, elliptic curve cryptography is not quantum resistant. 1746 01:23:47,841 --> 01:23:50,211 We have to replace it with something else eventually. 1747 01:23:50,801 --> 01:23:54,411 Right, and so that's very doable, I think, without soft, with just 1748 01:23:54,411 --> 01:23:57,331 soft forks and just with new code, because we're not making a claim about 1749 01:23:57,541 --> 01:23:59,791 historical UTXOs and historical scripts. 1750 01:23:59,791 --> 01:24:02,581 We're just giving you the option to get into quantum resistant stuff. 1751 01:24:02,591 --> 01:24:05,461 Like, I think that should be an easier conversation, and I think 1752 01:24:05,471 --> 01:24:06,631 it's one we'll eventually have. 1753 01:24:07,078 --> 01:24:08,288 And we actually have the tools to do that, right? 1754 01:24:08,288 --> 01:24:10,888 We have, we have segwit, so we can add little segwit versions, 1755 01:24:10,888 --> 01:24:12,388 and we can add post quantum stuff. 1756 01:24:12,408 --> 01:24:13,838 Like, that's actually going to be pretty easy. 1757 01:24:14,068 --> 01:24:16,378 The hard part is going to be, what should we do as a community? 1758 01:24:16,388 --> 01:24:21,788 What is our monetary policy towards existing UTXOs that are going 1759 01:24:21,788 --> 01:24:23,348 to be stolen if we do nothing? 1760 01:24:23,631 --> 01:24:24,491 It's just a hard question. 1761 01:24:24,850 --> 01:24:25,120 I don't know 1762 01:24:25,120 --> 01:24:25,530 It is. 1763 01:24:26,200 --> 01:24:30,880 Still, they would have to break more than just SHA 256, right? 1764 01:24:31,538 --> 01:24:33,018 think the argument is that they can't break. 1765 01:24:33,068 --> 01:24:35,733 There's no, there's not an argument right now that says that quantum 1766 01:24:35,733 --> 01:24:37,293 computers can break those algorithms. 1767 01:24:37,293 --> 01:24:38,403 Those are hashing algorithms. 1768 01:24:38,883 --> 01:24:44,163 So the idea is that like P2PKH should be safe against quantum computers because 1769 01:24:44,183 --> 01:24:47,703 they can't crack open the hashes to see the public keys that they need to break. 1770 01:24:47,983 --> 01:24:49,903 They can break the public key cryptography part, but they can't 1771 01:24:49,903 --> 01:24:50,833 break the hash part right now. 1772 01:24:50,833 --> 01:24:51,333 That's the belief. 1773 01:24:52,613 --> 01:24:56,873 And that's why Satoshi's P2PK coins are like a potential concern because 1774 01:24:56,873 --> 01:24:58,463 they aren't protected with that hash. 1775 01:24:58,792 --> 01:25:00,542 Now how many coins is that? 1776 01:25:01,172 --> 01:25:01,862 Hard to know. 1777 01:25:01,882 --> 01:25:04,252 It's estimated at near a million coins. 1778 01:25:04,561 --> 01:25:05,161 It's hard to know. 1779 01:25:05,887 --> 01:25:08,537 It's a treasure for future pirates to 1780 01:25:08,757 --> 01:25:09,807 It's just sitting there. 1781 01:25:09,877 --> 01:25:10,277 Yeah. 1782 01:25:10,597 --> 01:25:15,007 And part of me almost thinks that like right now the market's understood. 1783 01:25:15,287 --> 01:25:19,607 Business use case for quantum computing is drug discovery, more or less, like 1784 01:25:19,607 --> 01:25:22,647 the idea is like, we often think of like quantum computing as, oh, it solves the 1785 01:25:22,647 --> 01:25:26,767 traveling salesman problem, he visits all the stores at once, or some metaphor 1786 01:25:26,767 --> 01:25:30,037 that people have in their minds for how it works, but I think a lot of people 1787 01:25:30,037 --> 01:25:33,247 who are in the industry don't think of quantum computing's chief application 1788 01:25:33,247 --> 01:25:36,457 as being those kinds of arbitrary optimization problems, they think of 1789 01:25:36,457 --> 01:25:39,857 it as the chief purpose of quantum computing will be to simulate quantum 1790 01:25:39,857 --> 01:25:41,907 systems, which is to say molecules. 1791 01:25:42,262 --> 01:25:44,082 Uh, and why do you want to simulate molecules? 1792 01:25:44,092 --> 01:25:46,602 Because you're doing material science where you're doing drug discovery. 1793 01:25:46,872 --> 01:25:49,982 And so like, that's the understanding that like, this is where money will 1794 01:25:49,982 --> 01:25:53,092 come from, and like the funding for quantum computing comes from people who 1795 01:25:53,102 --> 01:25:54,792 want to use it to solve those problems. 1796 01:25:55,182 --> 01:25:56,072 But at some point... 1797 01:25:56,412 --> 01:25:58,262 Like, these curves cross, right? 1798 01:25:58,292 --> 01:26:02,392 And the value of a million bitcoins sitting in a P2PK address, set 1799 01:26:02,392 --> 01:26:06,592 of addresses is larger than the, than the revenue you would get by 1800 01:26:06,602 --> 01:26:09,142 new drugs or whatever it is that you would seek to bring to market. 1801 01:26:10,022 --> 01:26:13,062 This is just a terrifying, like, mix of things for me, right? 1802 01:26:13,072 --> 01:26:13,082 I 1803 01:26:13,247 --> 01:26:19,272 So you're saying that at some point, uh, Quantum computing and the idea 1804 01:26:19,272 --> 01:26:24,773 that it even has a chance of, of, hacking those million, supposed million 1805 01:26:24,773 --> 01:26:30,940 coins, that idea alone will be enough to fund quantum computing research? 1806 01:26:31,079 --> 01:26:31,559 don't know. 1807 01:26:31,579 --> 01:26:33,889 It really depends on the rates of all these curves, but like, I 1808 01:26:34,000 --> 01:26:34,920 Yeah, but given, given, 1809 01:26:35,249 --> 01:26:35,679 regime, yes. 1810 01:26:35,960 --> 01:26:37,560 given a high enough Bitcoin price, 1811 01:26:37,689 --> 01:26:42,079 yes, like, there's, if progress on drug discovery and other things is slower 1812 01:26:42,079 --> 01:26:46,489 than we expect, and Bitcoin's price rises higher than we expect, and the Bitcoin 1813 01:26:46,489 --> 01:26:51,159 community takes no actions to protect existing P2PK coins, that's a perfect 1814 01:26:51,159 --> 01:26:55,590 storm for someone to realize, wait a minute, like, if I spend a billion dollars 1815 01:26:55,590 --> 01:27:00,264 on Bitcoin, Or $10 billion or even a hundred billion dollars to figure out how 1816 01:27:00,269 --> 01:27:02,154 to build a quantum computer of that scale. 1817 01:27:02,184 --> 01:27:04,434 I can steal $3 trillion in Bitcoin. 1818 01:27:04,674 --> 01:27:07,464 Now, maybe that tanks the network and that's why they don't do it, but 1819 01:27:07,464 --> 01:27:09,474 eventually, like it's just curves, right? 1820 01:27:09,474 --> 01:27:11,964 Eventually that cost will get lower and lower and Bitcoin 1821 01:27:11,969 --> 01:27:12,954 keep getting higher and higher. 1822 01:27:13,344 --> 01:27:16,332 So the community of Bitcoiners, we're gonna have to confront 1823 01:27:16,332 --> 01:27:18,262 this issue at some point and decide what we wanna do about it. 1824 01:27:19,367 --> 01:27:22,927 I mean, there's so much to unpack here because, like, to a certain 1825 01:27:22,927 --> 01:27:28,957 extent, like, as we move further into hyperbitcoinization, I think consumerism 1826 01:27:29,007 --> 01:27:34,617 is, On its way out, like, uh, you know, Bitcoiners have a lower time preference or 1827 01:27:34,657 --> 01:27:39,147 they adopt a lower time preference because they see that delayed gratification is 1828 01:27:39,147 --> 01:27:41,857 better because Bitcoin is deflationary. 1829 01:27:41,887 --> 01:27:43,847 So it goes up in purchasing power over time. 1830 01:27:43,867 --> 01:27:47,017 So you're not incentivized to spend, spend and spend all the time. 1831 01:27:47,617 --> 01:27:51,667 And if I extrapolate that thought vector far enough into the future, 1832 01:27:52,432 --> 01:27:57,022 Uh, my conclusion is that we will prioritize quality over quantity so 1833 01:27:57,022 --> 01:28:01,452 much so that this whole consumerist culture is going away and we're getting 1834 01:28:01,452 --> 01:28:05,632 into a state where people only make really, really sound investments. 1835 01:28:06,092 --> 01:28:09,202 They only buy really, things that they really, really need. 1836 01:28:09,662 --> 01:28:13,872 And we might even get to a state where, you know, materialism isn't 1837 01:28:13,872 --> 01:28:15,782 such a big thing in the world anymore. 1838 01:28:15,982 --> 01:28:19,222 I mean, people, of course, are still going to crave stuff. 1839 01:28:19,322 --> 01:28:24,412 But not if they know the opportunity cost of missing out on the increased 1840 01:28:24,422 --> 01:28:30,992 purchasing power of Bitcoin, which will like 10x every decade into forever. 1841 01:28:31,772 --> 01:28:35,052 Say if that thesis is true, and if it plays out over a couple of hundred 1842 01:28:35,062 --> 01:28:39,412 years that it actually does that, then people will slowly but surely learn. 1843 01:28:40,082 --> 01:28:41,262 And if that is the case. 1844 01:28:42,112 --> 01:28:48,162 Then having a hundred billion dollars in Bitcoin or having three trillion makes 1845 01:28:48,162 --> 01:28:52,156 very little difference, like, because you're not going to use them anyway, even 1846 01:28:52,156 --> 01:28:57,866 a fraction of a Bitcoin is enough to last for you and your descendants forever. 1847 01:28:58,196 --> 01:29:02,481 So, so like, these are the, the real, when I really go bonkers 1848 01:29:02,481 --> 01:29:03,631 with the philosophy thing. 1849 01:29:04,131 --> 01:29:08,710 Uh, these are the points I end up with, like, everyone says they didn't, 1850 01:29:08,850 --> 01:29:10,170 they don't have enough bitcoins. 1851 01:29:10,804 --> 01:29:13,684 But the opposite is true, everyone has enough bitcoins, even no 1852 01:29:13,684 --> 01:29:17,614 coiners have enough bitcoin given a long enough time frame, you know. 1853 01:29:18,224 --> 01:29:22,244 Uh, because as long as they have something to sell, at some point. 1854 01:29:22,889 --> 01:29:24,179 They have generational wealth. 1855 01:29:24,219 --> 01:29:27,029 If you have Satoshis, you have generational wealth. 1856 01:29:27,089 --> 01:29:29,129 There are not enough Satoshis around. 1857 01:29:29,549 --> 01:29:30,369 Like, uh... 1858 01:29:30,429 --> 01:29:32,089 Kudu, buddy, I'd love to believe in that. 1859 01:29:32,219 --> 01:29:34,139 I'd love to believe in that story you just told me. 1860 01:29:34,259 --> 01:29:34,919 I really would. 1861 01:29:35,399 --> 01:29:37,999 But that does not jive with my understanding of human beings. 1862 01:29:38,209 --> 01:29:41,929 I think if Bitcoin, if Bitcoin becomes like a global everything and it is 1863 01:29:41,929 --> 01:29:45,879 the money of the world or whatever, whatever, whatever, maybe there 1864 01:29:45,879 --> 01:29:47,229 will be a decrease in consumerism. 1865 01:29:47,229 --> 01:29:48,459 I would like to see that. 1866 01:29:49,054 --> 01:29:51,364 But I think people are, people are just people and there's going to be 1867 01:29:51,364 --> 01:29:55,244 people, there's going to be socialists and communists and fascists and people 1868 01:29:55,244 --> 01:30:00,204 of all kinds who use Bitcoin every day and never think at all about how 1869 01:30:00,244 --> 01:30:03,414 maybe their day to day behaviors is discordant with the principles that 1870 01:30:03,414 --> 01:30:04,614 underlie the money that they use. 1871 01:30:04,634 --> 01:30:07,324 I think there's absolutely no connection between those things for most people. 1872 01:30:07,544 --> 01:30:10,994 I think the founders and the early members of the community of Bitcoin, like people 1873 01:30:11,004 --> 01:30:14,704 who are on this call, we have a very different attitude and relationship. 1874 01:30:14,959 --> 01:30:19,509 To this system of things, then an average person 50 years from now is going to 1875 01:30:19,509 --> 01:30:22,069 feel like, like you get reversion to the mean, you just get everything. 1876 01:30:22,229 --> 01:30:25,339 And I think even if, even if there were meaningful trends towards the 1877 01:30:25,339 --> 01:30:28,789 reduction in consumerism or whatever else it is, like this particular 1878 01:30:28,789 --> 01:30:33,309 quantum computing P2PK thing that I'm talking about, it's sort of like, it 1879 01:30:33,309 --> 01:30:35,379 just takes one person to fuck this up. 1880 01:30:35,748 --> 01:30:39,451 even if almost all of us behave responsibly and would never do this thing 1881 01:30:39,481 --> 01:30:41,451 to harm the rest of us, one of us might. 1882 01:30:41,734 --> 01:30:44,291 And so, Bitcoiners are not about trust, right? 1883 01:30:44,291 --> 01:30:47,081 We don't want to trust that none of us will engage in this bad activity. 1884 01:30:47,571 --> 01:30:49,831 We want to do the thing that you opened with, which is we want to 1885 01:30:49,831 --> 01:30:53,091 make it so incredibly expensive for you to attempt to do that, that you 1886 01:30:53,091 --> 01:30:55,351 just won't, and you'd rather put that energy into something else. 1887 01:30:56,301 --> 01:30:58,461 Touché, touché, absolute 1888 01:30:58,751 --> 01:31:00,231 But I don't know how to affect that. 1889 01:31:00,571 --> 01:31:01,351 I have no idea. 1890 01:31:01,451 --> 01:31:03,781 I'm, I'm just a guy being like, guys, this is a problem. 1891 01:31:03,801 --> 01:31:06,551 Eventually one day we should, we should be thinking about it, but I'm not, 1892 01:31:06,841 --> 01:31:09,741 I'm not advocating any actual actions because I don't know what's best. 1893 01:31:10,031 --> 01:31:11,531 And also I'm terrible at organizing. 1894 01:31:11,891 --> 01:31:14,481 So I have no idea how to convince the Bitcoin community of anything. 1895 01:31:14,531 --> 01:31:18,331 And I'm not even trying to, I'm just maybe trying to say like, one day, this 1896 01:31:18,331 --> 01:31:21,071 thing is going to be a decision that we're going to have to come and make. 1897 01:31:21,421 --> 01:31:21,831 And 1898 01:31:22,441 --> 01:31:23,531 touché, and this is a very good point. 1899 01:31:24,153 --> 01:31:25,423 I don't know what the decision should be. 1900 01:31:25,691 --> 01:31:28,851 No, but raising awareness is, you know, crucial. 1901 01:31:29,021 --> 01:31:32,051 If people are not aware of the problem, they can't fix the problem. 1902 01:31:32,081 --> 01:31:32,541 So like, 1903 01:31:33,071 --> 01:31:37,891 I think there's a perversely, uh, you know, again, Bitcoiners like to pretend 1904 01:31:37,891 --> 01:31:40,891 that we are some sort of, like, holier than thou, better than other tribes. 1905 01:31:40,891 --> 01:31:43,961 But truthfully, a lot of us are afraid to talk about this because 1906 01:31:44,031 --> 01:31:48,141 it requires some kind of change somewhere or it requires being okay 1907 01:31:48,141 --> 01:31:52,631 with near 10 percent of the supply just disappearing or whatever at some point. 1908 01:31:53,151 --> 01:31:55,071 which which in a way is fine. 1909 01:31:56,191 --> 01:31:59,711 Like on a long enough timeframe, it is an acceptable option. 1910 01:32:00,401 --> 01:32:02,851 maybe, maybe, maybe it is, maybe it isn't, like, because 1911 01:32:02,851 --> 01:32:03,851 at that point, what do you get? 1912 01:32:03,851 --> 01:32:07,431 You get probably, if it were, if that were the choice, I think the outcome 1913 01:32:07,431 --> 01:32:11,921 is eventually an incredibly powerful organization, whichever is the one 1914 01:32:11,921 --> 01:32:15,201 that has the world's largest quantum computing resources, now becomes the 1915 01:32:15,201 --> 01:32:18,211 world's wealthiest entity because they stole 10 percent of the world's money. 1916 01:32:18,751 --> 01:32:19,891 Yes, but... 1917 01:32:20,261 --> 01:32:24,861 That entity has only one way of getting something out of actual value for that 1918 01:32:24,991 --> 01:32:28,981 stack of money, because Bitcoin is not fiat, so the only way that they 1919 01:32:28,981 --> 01:32:31,651 can leverage that is by spending the 1920 01:32:31,651 --> 01:32:32,111 Bitcoin. 1921 01:32:32,601 --> 01:32:36,321 They can't, they can't fuck with people like you can with fiat. 1922 01:32:36,781 --> 01:32:39,081 And so, so maybe, maybe it's acceptable, right? 1923 01:32:39,121 --> 01:32:40,521 Like, maybe that's completely acceptable. 1924 01:32:40,681 --> 01:32:43,051 And I, it's not, it's, I'm not trying to decide the question. 1925 01:32:43,081 --> 01:32:44,111 I'm just trying to ask it. 1926 01:32:44,533 --> 01:32:45,243 Who knows, man? 1927 01:32:45,503 --> 01:32:45,973 Who knows? 1928 01:32:46,688 --> 01:32:50,858 I love to think about these things, it's fantastic, fantastic stuff. 1929 01:32:51,338 --> 01:32:55,662 And, yeah, but the thing is, the thing I Getting into this, uh, that which 1930 01:32:55,662 --> 01:33:00,512 you can do without your own, uh, uh, type of mindset is that I've seen it in 1931 01:33:00,522 --> 01:33:04,705 Bitcoin, like people discover Bitcoin for the, the gains and the money. 1932 01:33:04,765 --> 01:33:08,515 And they're, they, they, they stay for the money, like, and they stay 1933 01:33:08,515 --> 01:33:10,445 for, for philosophical reasons. 1934 01:33:10,455 --> 01:33:15,205 Sooner or later, when you really, I mean, tumble down the rabbit 1935 01:33:15,205 --> 01:33:16,515 hole, that's the inevitable. 1936 01:33:16,900 --> 01:33:22,000 Path you take because you, you realize all these other things about life and that 1937 01:33:22,000 --> 01:33:24,310 you don't need a ton of shit and stuff. 1938 01:33:24,465 --> 01:33:28,473 and yeah, I guess what, what you said, like the hard part is to, is to see 1939 01:33:28,473 --> 01:33:33,023 if it's this applicable to everyone, or is it just to like really, really 1940 01:33:33,023 --> 01:33:36,783 curious people who are willing to, to give up on their own beliefs, 1941 01:33:36,858 --> 01:33:40,568 even just 99 percent of us, maybe 99 percent of us experience that 1942 01:33:40,568 --> 01:33:42,508 change long term as a species. 1943 01:33:43,033 --> 01:33:46,873 Yeah, there's still that one asshole that might steal the coins. 1944 01:33:46,923 --> 01:33:51,443 It reminds me of, uh, have you seen a Gary Larson cartoon? 1945 01:33:51,553 --> 01:33:54,183 Uh, it's just a picture, four frames. 1946 01:33:54,533 --> 01:33:58,123 It says the four personality types, and there's a glass 1947 01:33:58,123 --> 01:33:59,553 of water in front of the guy. 1948 01:33:59,733 --> 01:34:02,603 Uh, so the, you know, those Gary Larson fat guys. 1949 01:34:03,551 --> 01:34:05,191 so there's a, a glass of water. 1950 01:34:05,191 --> 01:34:08,581 It's filled, half of the, uh, the glass is, it's filled. 1951 01:34:09,626 --> 01:34:10,276 50%. 1952 01:34:10,736 --> 01:34:13,996 So the first personality type says the glass is half full. 1953 01:34:14,396 --> 01:34:17,646 The second personality type says the glass is half empty. 1954 01:34:18,236 --> 01:34:22,426 The third personality type says the glass is half full, half empty, I 1955 01:34:22,426 --> 01:34:24,566 don't really know, can't decide. 1956 01:34:25,036 --> 01:34:28,266 And the fourth personality type, this would be the guy that would 1957 01:34:28,286 --> 01:34:32,436 steal the million bitcoins, says, hey, I ordered a cheeseburger. 1958 01:34:32,666 --> 01:34:33,116 Mm hmm. 1959 01:34:34,226 --> 01:34:38,496 And there's always the, hey, I ordered a cheeseburger personality type 1960 01:34:38,506 --> 01:34:39,826 that just want to destroy things. 1961 01:34:39,836 --> 01:34:41,981 So that's That's unfortunate, I guess. 1962 01:34:42,644 --> 01:34:44,474 The show is also sponsored by Zellox. 1963 01:34:44,644 --> 01:34:46,704 That's X E L L O X. 1964 01:34:47,164 --> 01:34:50,194 They've developed the excellent Yoki's Seed Plate Kit. 1965 01:34:50,344 --> 01:34:53,344 The solution against everything life throws at you, including 1966 01:34:53,344 --> 01:34:55,914 fire, water, corrosion, and pests. 1967 01:34:56,564 --> 01:35:00,284 The Yoki's package includes three stainless steel plates and a pen sized 1968 01:35:00,284 --> 01:35:03,844 electric engraver so you can write your seed on metal just like writing on paper. 1969 01:35:04,289 --> 01:35:06,989 And they have big plans, they're developing a next gen hardware 1970 01:35:06,989 --> 01:35:10,549 wallet too, but for now, you can order the YoKeys to safeguard your 1971 01:35:10,549 --> 01:35:12,339 keys in a safe and convenient way. 1972 01:35:12,949 --> 01:35:14,599 Check out Zellox at zellox. 1973 01:35:14,649 --> 01:35:18,469 io, that's X E L L O X dot I O. 1974 01:35:19,089 --> 01:35:21,869 And finally, we're also sponsored by BitcoinBook. 1975 01:35:21,889 --> 01:35:25,179 shop, your source for bitcoin books in over a dozen languages 1976 01:35:25,199 --> 01:35:26,749 including all of Knut's books. 1977 01:35:27,429 --> 01:35:30,579 Their mission is to translate great bitcoin and freedom oriented books 1978 01:35:30,689 --> 01:35:32,549 into as many languages as possible. 1979 01:35:32,869 --> 01:35:36,579 While also publishing original titles to get even more knowledge out there. 1980 01:35:37,219 --> 01:35:40,609 Use code footprint for 10 percent off your purchases at bitcoinbook. 1981 01:35:41,419 --> 01:35:41,879 shop. 1982 01:35:42,684 --> 01:35:46,834 Drew, before we, yeah, uh, sorry for stealing the show there for a while. 1983 01:35:46,904 --> 01:35:52,464 Uh, any last, last words, uh, before we, uh, end this, uh, show? 1984 01:35:52,989 --> 01:35:54,419 For me, no, this has been awesome. 1985 01:35:54,419 --> 01:35:57,489 Thanks for just a wide ranging, you know, fun conversation. 1986 01:35:57,789 --> 01:35:59,909 Um, it's early, it's a little, it's in the morning for me, so 1987 01:35:59,909 --> 01:36:01,739 this is a great way to open my day. 1988 01:36:01,789 --> 01:36:04,499 I'm just going to be buzzing with all sorts of fun ideas while I go 1989 01:36:04,499 --> 01:36:05,399 through the rest of my meetings. 1990 01:36:06,294 --> 01:36:07,334 Oh, lovely to hear. 1991 01:36:07,334 --> 01:36:10,574 I'm gonna, I'm gonna have a long walk after this and, uh, my brain 1992 01:36:10,574 --> 01:36:12,094 is full with new ideas as well. 1993 01:36:12,094 --> 01:36:16,444 I love getting into these, you know, nerdy philosophical stuff. 1994 01:36:16,601 --> 01:36:18,628 don't know for me, it's heating up right now. 1995 01:36:19,591 --> 01:36:23,181 uh, can, can, uh, can you tell our, uh, our listeners and viewers where to 1996 01:36:23,231 --> 01:36:25,691 find you and follow what you're doing? 1997 01:36:26,799 --> 01:36:27,559 Yeah, absolutely. 1998 01:36:27,849 --> 01:36:30,629 So I work at Unchained and you can check our business out at unchained. 1999 01:36:30,629 --> 01:36:30,939 com. 2000 01:36:30,939 --> 01:36:34,249 Come learn about better collaborative custody, security, and financial services. 2001 01:36:34,549 --> 01:36:36,339 I blog on an Unchained's blog. 2002 01:36:36,339 --> 01:36:37,199 So that's unchained. 2003 01:36:37,199 --> 01:36:38,119 com slash blog. 2004 01:36:38,129 --> 01:36:42,349 You can find a lot of my articles about Bitcoin, astronomy, and space and these 2005 01:36:42,349 --> 01:36:43,819 market ideas kind of sitting there. 2006 01:36:43,969 --> 01:36:47,999 Um, and then I do tweet, um, Drew, uh, just my first and last 2007 01:36:47,999 --> 01:36:49,679 name, Drew Fansel, um, at Twitter. 2008 01:36:50,139 --> 01:36:51,799 I'm doing that less and less these days. 2009 01:36:52,129 --> 01:36:53,249 I'm getting less value out of Twitter. 2010 01:36:53,249 --> 01:36:55,509 I can't decide if it's me or if it's the network, but. 2011 01:36:55,509 --> 01:36:55,739 Yeah. 2012 01:36:56,289 --> 01:36:57,169 Um, I am there. 2013 01:36:57,521 --> 01:36:58,164 Fantastic. 2014 01:36:58,254 --> 01:37:00,884 Thank you so much for joining us on the Freedom Footprint show. 2015 01:37:01,573 --> 01:37:02,323 Thank you, Drew. 2016 01:37:02,483 --> 01:37:04,173 Uh, have a great day. 2017 01:37:04,813 --> 01:37:05,493 See you next time. 2018 01:37:06,239 --> 01:37:08,199 So what did you think of that episode with Dhruv? 2019 01:37:08,679 --> 01:37:11,409 He has some really interesting thoughts about the future of Bitcoin. 2020 01:37:11,699 --> 01:37:12,809 What was your favorite moment? 2021 01:37:12,979 --> 01:37:13,599 Let us know. 2022 01:37:14,029 --> 01:37:17,019 You can send us a boostergram on Fountain, leave us a comment on YouTube, 2023 01:37:17,029 --> 01:37:19,089 or get in touch on Nostr or Twitter. 2024 01:37:19,709 --> 01:37:21,849 If you're watching on YouTube, don't forget to like the episode 2025 01:37:21,849 --> 01:37:22,989 and subscribe to the channel. 2026 01:37:23,369 --> 01:37:26,619 Our show's sponsors are Wasabi Wallet, Orange Pill Lab, The 2027 01:37:26,619 --> 01:37:28,949 Bitcoin Way, Zelox, and BitcoinBook. 2028 01:37:29,439 --> 01:37:29,809 shop. 2029 01:37:30,379 --> 01:37:31,979 Check out their details in the description. 2030 01:37:32,819 --> 01:37:36,519 That's all for now, see you next time, and thanks for listening.