Money, Meaning, and Metaphysics with Robert Breedlove - Freedom Footprint Show 56

1 00:00:00,210 --> 00:00:05,089 it's mind bending still to me that it's just this, " just", this monetary 2 00:00:05,089 --> 00:00:09,289 innovation, which is, I never thought it would be such a philosophical rabbit 3 00:00:09,289 --> 00:00:11,299 hole in so many different directions. 4 00:00:11,329 --> 00:00:15,141 And, I don't know, sometimes I catch myself like the things I'm reading about 5 00:00:15,141 --> 00:00:18,931 or thinking about, I'm like, how did this all, how did Bitcoin lead to all this? 6 00:00:19,953 --> 00:00:21,723 Welcome back to the Freedom Footprint Show. 7 00:00:22,079 --> 00:00:26,089 The Bitcoin Philosophy Show with Knut Svanholm and me, Luke the Pseudo Finn. 8 00:00:26,633 --> 00:00:30,493 In today's episode, we're joined by our friend Robert Breedlove, host of 9 00:00:30,493 --> 00:00:34,403 the What Is Money show, home to some of the best deep dive series into the 10 00:00:34,403 --> 00:00:38,543 world of money and bitcoin, including the Saylor series with Michael Saylor. 11 00:00:39,196 --> 00:00:42,826 Our conversation today is inspired by many of the books that have defined our 12 00:00:42,846 --> 00:00:44,986 personal experiences and bitcoin journeys. 13 00:00:45,566 --> 00:00:48,856 Maps of Meaning by Jordan Peterson, Human Action by Mises. 14 00:00:49,501 --> 00:00:53,801 Economic Science and the Austrian Method by Hoppe, and Lila by Robert Persik. 15 00:00:54,373 --> 00:00:57,453 We also discuss value and its connection to praxeology. 16 00:00:57,793 --> 00:01:01,143 We reflect on communication, language, and argumentation ethics. 17 00:01:01,678 --> 00:01:07,008 And finally, we ask Robert for his answer to the age old question, what is money? 18 00:01:07,630 --> 00:01:08,090 Curious? 19 00:01:08,690 --> 00:01:09,370 Keep listening. 20 00:01:09,880 --> 00:01:13,540 But before we jump in, a quick reminder that the best way to support the show 21 00:01:13,790 --> 00:01:17,120 is to send us a boost or stream us some sats using a value for value 22 00:01:17,120 --> 00:01:18,900 podcasting app such as Fountain. 23 00:01:19,197 --> 00:01:22,117 If you're listening to this show as a podcast, check it out on Fountain. 24 00:01:22,387 --> 00:01:24,827 You can earn sats from listening and you can support us. 25 00:01:25,182 --> 00:01:26,602 And all your other favorite shows. 26 00:01:27,040 --> 00:01:30,630 You can also support us on geyser or send sats directly to our lightning 27 00:01:30,630 --> 00:01:32,740 address freedom at geyser dot fund. 28 00:01:33,510 --> 00:01:36,890 And if you want to exchange your dirty fiat, you can support us on Patreon. 29 00:01:37,390 --> 00:01:38,860 All our links are in the description. 30 00:01:39,449 --> 00:01:41,879 If you're watching on YouTube, don't forget to like the episode 31 00:01:41,879 --> 00:01:42,999 and subscribe to the channel. 32 00:01:43,569 --> 00:01:46,249 Even if you're listening as a podcast, head over to our YouTube 33 00:01:46,249 --> 00:01:47,779 channel and subscribe to us there. 34 00:01:48,029 --> 00:01:48,919 It would be a big help. 35 00:01:49,343 --> 00:01:51,623 And finally, we want to thank today's sponsors. 36 00:01:52,073 --> 00:01:56,793 AmberApp, WasabiWallet, OrangePillApp, TheBitcoinWay, and Geyser. 37 00:01:57,463 --> 00:01:59,183 All their information is in the description. 38 00:01:59,323 --> 00:02:00,943 We'll be talking a bit more about them later. 39 00:02:01,829 --> 00:02:05,969 And now, without further ado, here is Robert Breedlove on 40 00:02:05,969 --> 00:02:07,019 the Freedom Footprint show. 41 00:02:07,846 --> 00:02:09,506 Rob, welcome to the Freedom Footprint show. 42 00:02:09,516 --> 00:02:10,376 Thanks for joining us. 43 00:02:10,963 --> 00:02:12,153 Hey guys, thanks for having me. 44 00:02:12,163 --> 00:02:12,933 Happy to be here. 45 00:02:13,380 --> 00:02:14,700 Yeah, happy to have you on Rob. 46 00:02:14,720 --> 00:02:18,780 Um, I've been on your show three times, I think, so it's 47 00:02:18,780 --> 00:02:20,090 about time you come to ours. 48 00:02:20,539 --> 00:02:21,629 Yeah, I think so. 49 00:02:21,739 --> 00:02:22,509 I'm overdue. 50 00:02:23,844 --> 00:02:25,704 we met briefly in Riga. 51 00:02:25,904 --> 00:02:30,714 We were both busy, you a bit busier than us, as usual. 52 00:02:31,174 --> 00:02:33,234 And you did a bunch of interviews there. 53 00:02:34,074 --> 00:02:34,964 I mean, you're a... 54 00:02:35,744 --> 00:02:38,924 You work like a Terminator and look like one as well for that. 55 00:02:39,204 --> 00:02:45,464 I mean, you've been doing a ton of interviews and I'm really impressed 56 00:02:45,464 --> 00:02:47,484 by that work ethic of yours. 57 00:02:47,524 --> 00:02:50,484 Like it's, it's, uh, it's always on, it seems. 58 00:02:51,097 --> 00:02:51,587 thank you. 59 00:02:51,707 --> 00:02:55,297 Well, I mean, you know how the podcasting thing is like when 60 00:02:55,297 --> 00:02:56,827 you're doing it, it's very intense. 61 00:02:57,247 --> 00:03:00,967 There's, especially when you're at events and everyone's there, you get 62 00:03:00,967 --> 00:03:05,067 a lot of juice for the squeeze by just really getting all the speakers or 63 00:03:05,067 --> 00:03:08,157 whoever's attending the event together and knocking out a bunch of interviews. 64 00:03:09,187 --> 00:03:10,607 But then you get to. 65 00:03:10,997 --> 00:03:13,727 You know, turned down hopefully for a few days after that. 66 00:03:13,737 --> 00:03:16,807 So, seems like it's kind of like sprint and then rest 67 00:03:17,767 --> 00:03:19,657 type of work, work frequency. 68 00:03:20,342 --> 00:03:21,952 yeah, it's a good lifestyle. 69 00:03:22,427 --> 00:03:22,837 yeah, 70 00:03:22,842 --> 00:03:25,782 um, so who did you interview in 71 00:03:27,227 --> 00:03:28,347 Yeah, we had Adam back. 72 00:03:29,216 --> 00:03:31,696 talked a little bit about the block size wars with him. 73 00:03:31,826 --> 00:03:34,706 Uh, in addition to some other things they've been doing over at Blockstream. 74 00:03:35,416 --> 00:03:36,786 Talked to Dylan LeClair. 75 00:03:37,728 --> 00:03:43,628 Spoke with, um, I don't want to mispronounce his name now, the 76 00:03:43,628 --> 00:03:46,368 last Austrian economist in Austria, 77 00:03:46,723 --> 00:03:47,643 Taghisadigan. 78 00:03:47,758 --> 00:03:53,068 Rahim, thank you, had a good lengthy conversation with him, uh, and 79 00:03:53,068 --> 00:03:56,508 a few others, so yeah, it was a good time, and then it looks like, 80 00:03:56,948 --> 00:03:59,968 this isn't final yet, but it looks like I'll try to go to Lugano, 81 00:04:01,033 --> 00:04:01,893 Oh, excellent. 82 00:04:02,033 --> 00:04:03,273 We're coming to Lugano too. 83 00:04:03,868 --> 00:04:06,908 yeah, so we'll try to do the same thing there, get some people together, have 84 00:04:06,908 --> 00:04:11,708 some interviews, and then also, uh, I'll be at Jordan Peterson's event 85 00:04:11,718 --> 00:04:16,388 at the end of October, beginning of November in London, and so I'll be 86 00:04:16,398 --> 00:04:19,358 interviewing some of the speakers at that event there, so that'll be not, 87 00:04:19,438 --> 00:04:24,803 obviously that's not a Bitcoin event, um, But definitely a lot of people in 88 00:04:24,803 --> 00:04:28,273 the, let's say freedom focused universe. 89 00:04:29,203 --> 00:04:31,993 Um, hopefully having them on for some in person interviews as well. 90 00:04:32,003 --> 00:04:33,563 So I'm super excited for all that. 91 00:04:33,810 --> 00:04:36,130 you gave me the perfect segue, Rob. 92 00:04:36,155 --> 00:04:36,568 Yes. 93 00:04:36,765 --> 00:04:37,255 Yes. 94 00:04:38,140 --> 00:04:41,790 so, so, so, uh, I'll just give you like a quick little bit of, of 95 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:46,560 background, but like basically you and the you, you were my orange pill. 96 00:04:46,590 --> 00:04:47,260 Absolutely. 97 00:04:47,740 --> 00:04:48,400 Oh, nice. 98 00:04:48,470 --> 00:04:48,550 so. 99 00:04:49,060 --> 00:04:54,670 You know, first personal thank you for that, but the way I found you was when 100 00:04:54,670 --> 00:05:00,215 you went on Lex Friedman, and I'd been watching kind of all of his crypto and 101 00:05:00,215 --> 00:05:06,660 bitcoin related people at the time, but yours was, well, unique, and the 102 00:05:06,700 --> 00:05:10,700 thing that I latched onto was somewhere in the middle there you mentioned 103 00:05:11,150 --> 00:05:15,510 Jordan Peterson, and you called Maps of Meaning one of your most use cases. 104 00:05:15,620 --> 00:05:18,920 Meaningful books, like the books you would recommend the most, I believe it 105 00:05:18,930 --> 00:05:23,850 was Human Action and Maps of Meaning were the two you mentioned there, and well, 106 00:05:23,910 --> 00:05:31,930 basically, I've been a Peterson guy for a long time now, um, helped me through 107 00:05:31,930 --> 00:05:37,015 my younger adulthood, Uh, so to say, I'm still young, but, uh, you know, getting 108 00:05:37,015 --> 00:05:43,225 there, um, but the, the main thing, I guess, that I wanted to, to ask or to, to 109 00:05:43,225 --> 00:05:47,935 talk to you a little bit about was, uh, so I'm rereading Maps of Meaning again, and, 110 00:05:47,935 --> 00:05:52,855 and it just kind of, it's all fantastic stuff, but can, can you tell a little 111 00:05:52,855 --> 00:05:56,575 bit about what you got out of that book? 112 00:05:56,575 --> 00:05:58,695 What, uh, Maps of Meaning means to you? 113 00:05:58,695 --> 00:05:58,775 Thank you. 114 00:05:59,990 --> 00:06:00,360 Yeah. 115 00:06:00,390 --> 00:06:06,600 Um, yeah, the, the, the books that I mentioned on the Lex Fridman podcast 116 00:06:06,610 --> 00:06:11,810 were Maps of Meaning, Human Action, and then Robert Persick's book, Lila. 117 00:06:13,345 --> 00:06:17,005 And I think reading those three books together is one, a good way 118 00:06:17,005 --> 00:06:23,227 to dematerialize your worldview in the sense that you'll move away from 119 00:06:23,227 --> 00:06:27,207 being a materialist into someone that understands the world, uh, just 120 00:06:27,207 --> 00:06:28,337 through a different framework, right? 121 00:06:28,337 --> 00:06:31,437 A framework of value, a framework of Praxeology in the case of 122 00:06:31,437 --> 00:06:36,257 human action, um, and maybe even a different metaphysical framework 123 00:06:36,267 --> 00:06:40,593 when you use something like Lila, that the book that really posits 124 00:06:40,593 --> 00:06:44,393 that value is the fundamental ground stuff of reality in a way. 125 00:06:45,213 --> 00:06:48,813 So I just thought those three books are very interesting to read together, which 126 00:06:48,813 --> 00:06:51,173 I just happened to do at that time. 127 00:06:51,173 --> 00:06:55,843 But maps of meaning specifically, I think Peterson, I mean, he's 128 00:06:55,843 --> 00:07:00,198 drawing very heavily on like Carl Jung and, and others, but he's. 129 00:07:01,163 --> 00:07:06,403 Basically putting forth, uh, a worldview that's non materialist, right? 130 00:07:06,403 --> 00:07:12,373 It has more to do with value, um, has more to do with, you know, what 131 00:07:12,373 --> 00:07:16,573 you value actually determines what, not only how you see the world, but 132 00:07:16,583 --> 00:07:18,593 what you actually see in the world. 133 00:07:19,213 --> 00:07:22,863 One of the experiments he often likes to cite is the selective attention 134 00:07:22,863 --> 00:07:27,993 experiment, where there's, uh, people are charged with the task of counting 135 00:07:27,993 --> 00:07:31,013 the number of basketball passes between these two teams on a video. 136 00:07:31,893 --> 00:07:36,813 And When they do that, they fail to see the six foot man in a gorilla costume 137 00:07:36,813 --> 00:07:39,473 come into the middle of the screen and wave his arms around for a few 138 00:07:39,473 --> 00:07:42,923 seconds and walk off screen because they're so focused on the task of 139 00:07:42,923 --> 00:07:44,543 actually counting the number of passes. 140 00:07:45,233 --> 00:07:48,573 So the point being that when they value achieving the objective of 141 00:07:48,573 --> 00:07:53,193 counting the number of passes, that you actually fail to see six foot gorillas 142 00:07:53,193 --> 00:07:54,933 walking into the middle of your frame. 143 00:07:55,553 --> 00:07:55,953 Um... 144 00:07:57,508 --> 00:07:59,688 And so value, valuation, or the process of valuation is actually 145 00:07:59,688 --> 00:08:02,498 determining what you see in the world, not just how you see the world. 146 00:08:03,448 --> 00:08:06,218 And, you know, the bookmaps of meaning, I don't know that 147 00:08:06,218 --> 00:08:07,628 I'd recommend it to everyone. 148 00:08:07,638 --> 00:08:09,098 It's very dense. 149 00:08:09,228 --> 00:08:15,158 I think Peterson said he spent 15 years and three, three hours 150 00:08:15,158 --> 00:08:16,988 a day for 15 years writing it. 151 00:08:17,008 --> 00:08:17,863 Something just... 152 00:08:18,563 --> 00:08:20,553 You know, just an absurd amount of work went into it. 153 00:08:20,563 --> 00:08:25,892 The sentences are very dense, but he, he goes down a lot of the, 154 00:08:25,922 --> 00:08:29,832 the psychological rabbit holes that Jungian psychology gets into. 155 00:08:30,622 --> 00:08:33,502 I really got, one of the most fascinating parts of that book for me 156 00:08:33,502 --> 00:08:38,762 was towards the end when he's talking about alchemy, um, and just the 157 00:08:38,762 --> 00:08:42,532 nature of what alchemy was said to be. 158 00:08:42,542 --> 00:08:43,552 You know, it was said to like. 159 00:08:44,917 --> 00:08:48,177 Be a process that paralleled the passion of Christ. 160 00:08:48,187 --> 00:08:52,937 It was the pursuit of the lapis philosophorum, which was the philosopher's 161 00:08:52,967 --> 00:08:56,787 stone, which was said to be the incorruptible substance that would serve 162 00:08:56,787 --> 00:08:58,657 as an antidote for tyranny in the world. 163 00:08:59,960 --> 00:09:03,770 and I, you know, there were just so many parallels with Bitcoin there. 164 00:09:04,160 --> 00:09:06,470 Also like by interacting with the philosopher's stone, it 165 00:09:06,470 --> 00:09:08,090 actually makes you better. 166 00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:12,110 And so we often talk about Bitcoiners going down the Bitcoin rabbit hole and 167 00:09:12,110 --> 00:09:14,280 experiencing personal transformations. 168 00:09:15,341 --> 00:09:18,141 You know, I don't, maybe I, maybe I've drank too much of the orange Kool 169 00:09:18,141 --> 00:09:22,901 Aid, but I definitely saw a lot of parallels between Peterson's discussion 170 00:09:22,931 --> 00:09:27,141 of alchemy and the Philosopher's Stone to, to Bitcoin overall. 171 00:09:27,771 --> 00:09:32,751 And then, you know, where I think JBP, I guess, obviously saying maps 172 00:09:32,751 --> 00:09:36,141 of meaning, you could have also called the book maps of value in a way. 173 00:09:37,051 --> 00:09:37,601 And there's. 174 00:09:38,101 --> 00:09:43,931 A lot of talk about meaning and a lot of talk about value, but that, it, it sort of 175 00:09:43,941 --> 00:09:48,681 doesn't get into, it doesn't, he doesn't have Mises in his worldview, right? 176 00:09:48,741 --> 00:09:53,141 He doesn't have praxeology, he doesn't have human action, so it's like, it fails 177 00:09:53,151 --> 00:09:57,871 to see this deep connection, perhaps even, you might even say value and 178 00:09:57,881 --> 00:09:59,581 action are like the same thing, right? 179 00:09:59,591 --> 00:10:02,091 All human action is an expression of value. 180 00:10:02,591 --> 00:10:05,831 Um, I'm not completely convinced it's just human though, like, I 181 00:10:05,831 --> 00:10:09,151 think purpose might be something that exists beyond just the human domain. 182 00:10:09,831 --> 00:10:12,281 Obviously that's more of a metaphysical debate. 183 00:10:13,047 --> 00:10:18,497 but I think that in JVP's work, it keeps the matter of value rather 184 00:10:18,517 --> 00:10:22,087 abstract and that he doesn't ground it out in the practical realities of, 185 00:10:22,117 --> 00:10:24,347 of actually, of actual human action. 186 00:10:24,907 --> 00:10:27,797 And I think that's where you get a lot of value by plugging in, reading 187 00:10:27,797 --> 00:10:29,447 the book, Human Action and Mises. 188 00:10:30,367 --> 00:10:32,947 And then, uh, again, with, with Lila, you get this. 189 00:10:33,557 --> 00:10:38,337 Sort of metaphysical grounding, um, in addition to those two 190 00:10:38,337 --> 00:10:42,757 books that really just sort of rounds out the counterpoint to the 191 00:10:42,757 --> 00:10:44,667 materialist worldview, you might say, 192 00:10:45,266 --> 00:10:50,606 yeah, the density of maps of meaning is, is, yeah, it's, it's quite something. 193 00:10:50,786 --> 00:10:53,306 I've appreciated his, his lecture. 194 00:10:53,616 --> 00:10:57,176 series on that topic, uh, which kind of distilled that and made 195 00:10:57,176 --> 00:10:58,416 it a little bit more accessible. 196 00:10:58,416 --> 00:11:02,126 But when he, when he came out with 12 rules for life, I, I'd actually been 197 00:11:02,126 --> 00:11:07,726 hoping for like a, like a maps of meaning light instead, and sort of the rules 198 00:11:07,726 --> 00:11:09,546 for life series is that, but it's, it's. 199 00:11:10,391 --> 00:11:13,611 Of course, it's couched in this framing that's supposed 200 00:11:13,621 --> 00:11:15,321 to make it ultra accessible. 201 00:11:15,321 --> 00:11:18,941 And yeah, that's, that's had maybe mixed success, I would say. 202 00:11:18,941 --> 00:11:23,191 But yeah, the, I really like your point, I guess, about the, that 203 00:11:23,191 --> 00:11:25,111 maps of value could be an alternate. 204 00:11:26,196 --> 00:11:33,136 And, um, certainly agree that, that his, his, uh, lack of the praxeological 205 00:11:33,136 --> 00:11:37,206 point is glaringly obvious when you've been looking at that, uh, side of 206 00:11:37,206 --> 00:11:41,606 things, but yeah, um, that was, that was kind of my, uh, comments there, 207 00:11:41,606 --> 00:11:43,516 but Knut, any, any thoughts on that? 208 00:11:44,256 --> 00:11:44,726 Curious. 209 00:11:44,726 --> 00:11:46,566 When did you last speak to Jordan? 210 00:11:47,413 --> 00:11:51,093 I mean, we've traded emails about the event, so, just over the past 211 00:11:51,113 --> 00:11:54,423 several months, but, spoken to him? 212 00:11:54,573 --> 00:11:55,593 Actually spoken to him? 213 00:11:55,703 --> 00:11:58,213 I haven't spoken to him since we did our thing in Miami. 214 00:11:58,983 --> 00:11:59,443 Okay. 215 00:11:59,663 --> 00:12:04,533 So, so do you think he's properly orange pill at this point? 216 00:12:04,543 --> 00:12:09,253 You see, we see some hints, uh, back and forth, but then once in a while, he 217 00:12:09,283 --> 00:12:13,873 says something sort of counter to the Bitcoin ethos in terms of the, you know, 218 00:12:13,873 --> 00:12:15,993 internet anonymity and stuff like that. 219 00:12:16,033 --> 00:12:20,797 And he doesn't really seem to grasp the importance of, of privacy, or. 220 00:12:20,797 --> 00:12:20,917 Yeah. 221 00:12:20,917 --> 00:12:20,937 Yeah. 222 00:12:21,697 --> 00:12:27,527 Just have a different, different outlook than on that topic than most Bitcoiners. 223 00:12:28,017 --> 00:12:34,397 Um, so, so where do you think he is in his, um, rabbit hole journey? 224 00:12:34,885 --> 00:12:39,455 Well, I would definitely say he is not properly orange pilled yet. 225 00:12:39,575 --> 00:12:45,065 Um, as we all know, that takes, whatever, X hundred hours to get to that point. 226 00:12:45,865 --> 00:12:50,385 Somewhere between one and a few hundred hours, I guess, depending on who you 227 00:12:50,385 --> 00:12:52,025 are, what approach you take, et cetera. 228 00:12:52,685 --> 00:12:56,085 Uh, I doubt he's spent that much time at all. 229 00:12:56,095 --> 00:12:59,375 Like it seems like he paid attention to Bitcoin in the bull market. 230 00:12:59,775 --> 00:13:03,045 And then when bull market ceased, he kind of stopped paying attention. 231 00:13:03,875 --> 00:13:05,755 Um, he still tweets things out though. 232 00:13:05,765 --> 00:13:07,105 Like can Bitcoin fix this? 233 00:13:07,395 --> 00:13:10,115 You know, he'll be tweeting out some 234 00:13:10,595 --> 00:13:11,135 Yeah. 235 00:13:11,215 --> 00:13:12,415 That's the last week, right? 236 00:13:12,755 --> 00:13:13,665 Yeah, something, 237 00:13:13,785 --> 00:13:14,295 something. 238 00:13:15,379 --> 00:13:18,089 Oh, Australia moving people to a cashless society. 239 00:13:18,089 --> 00:13:21,259 I think they were just turning off physical cash, you know, and he's 240 00:13:21,269 --> 00:13:22,499 saying, Oh, can Bitcoin fix this? 241 00:13:22,539 --> 00:13:25,219 And we're like, Oh, of course, that's a counterparty, basically 242 00:13:25,219 --> 00:13:26,589 rug pulling you effectively. 243 00:13:27,159 --> 00:13:29,169 And so Bitcoin's money without a counterparty. 244 00:13:29,179 --> 00:13:30,589 So yeah, Bitcoin does fix that. 245 00:13:31,165 --> 00:13:33,255 no one's going to turn off Bitcoin on you, right? 246 00:13:33,255 --> 00:13:35,485 Whereas they can basically turn off physical cash. 247 00:13:36,355 --> 00:13:39,285 So, Uh, his curiosity is there. 248 00:13:39,295 --> 00:13:40,655 Where is he at on his journey? 249 00:13:40,655 --> 00:13:43,935 I'm not entirely sure, but he will be the first to admit to 250 00:13:43,945 --> 00:13:48,975 you that he doesn't have a strong understanding of economics in general. 251 00:13:49,622 --> 00:13:53,072 even the way he describes money, you know, he describes money as trust. 252 00:13:53,972 --> 00:13:56,812 And again, I think this is, you get very muddy with the language here 253 00:13:56,812 --> 00:14:01,492 because I would lean more on Nick Szabo's perspective of money being 254 00:14:01,492 --> 00:14:03,852 the trust minimized asset, right? 255 00:14:04,512 --> 00:14:08,952 The thing that I can use in exchange with the least need to trust anyone, right? 256 00:14:08,952 --> 00:14:10,222 Least counterparty risk. 257 00:14:11,312 --> 00:14:14,692 And so, but again, the trust... 258 00:14:15,192 --> 00:14:16,802 is an ambivalent term, right? 259 00:14:16,802 --> 00:14:21,062 Because it's like, okay, there's a, there's the least need for interpersonal 260 00:14:21,072 --> 00:14:25,972 trust, but it's the same thing as saying you have trust in the integrity 261 00:14:25,972 --> 00:14:30,192 or credibility of the monetary properties associated with the money. 262 00:14:30,592 --> 00:14:35,092 It's like saying, okay, when I walk across a bridge, am I trusting an 263 00:14:35,092 --> 00:14:39,132 individual to keep or individuals to keep the bridge intact? 264 00:14:39,172 --> 00:14:43,272 Or am I trusting principles of civil engineering that were properly applied? 265 00:14:43,932 --> 00:14:47,267 You know, so it's, Interpersonal versus impersonal trust. 266 00:14:47,267 --> 00:14:51,117 And so when he just says money is trust, I think it's very much 267 00:14:51,137 --> 00:14:53,367 ambivalent and not that useful. 268 00:14:54,217 --> 00:14:56,977 So there's that. 269 00:14:56,977 --> 00:15:02,537 And then again, you know, I would love to hear him really try to expand 270 00:15:02,537 --> 00:15:04,427 upon the question, what is value? 271 00:15:05,377 --> 00:15:08,347 Because I don't know what value is other than. 272 00:15:09,607 --> 00:15:12,787 What is expressed in human action, right? 273 00:15:12,797 --> 00:15:15,847 What else is value other than what is expressed in human action? 274 00:15:16,577 --> 00:15:21,457 And so for all of his focus on meaning and value, I don't think, I would like to hear 275 00:15:21,457 --> 00:15:24,307 what grounding definition he has for that. 276 00:15:25,047 --> 00:15:27,867 Because if you really come to understand that, then, um... 277 00:15:29,477 --> 00:15:33,687 Uh, you know, a lot of the arguments he's putting forth would just plug 278 00:15:33,687 --> 00:15:37,207 straight into praxeology and then he would go down the Mises rabbit hole 279 00:15:37,627 --> 00:15:40,917 and then presumably he would get thoroughly orange pills in the process. 280 00:15:41,587 --> 00:15:42,257 So I 281 00:15:42,282 --> 00:15:43,062 we love to see 282 00:15:43,862 --> 00:15:45,872 Yeah, we would love to see that. 283 00:15:46,132 --> 00:15:48,412 Um, but who knows? 284 00:15:48,432 --> 00:15:50,912 You know, he's also, he's an older guy, you know, I don't 285 00:15:50,912 --> 00:15:55,302 know how many more rabbit holes he's, he's got left to go down. 286 00:15:56,277 --> 00:15:59,387 so on that note, what, what is, what is your answer? 287 00:15:59,527 --> 00:16:01,207 Your personal answer to the question? 288 00:16:01,207 --> 00:16:01,967 What is money? 289 00:16:03,042 --> 00:16:04,722 I wish I had only one for you. 290 00:16:05,132 --> 00:16:09,539 Um, the thing, okay, I'll say, I'll say this first. 291 00:16:10,039 --> 00:16:17,609 That the most interesting thing for me on this three, almost three year journey now 292 00:16:17,629 --> 00:16:23,209 doing the podcast, the what is money show, asking this question to, I don't know how 293 00:16:23,209 --> 00:16:29,769 many we've had 360 something episodes, probably definitely over a hundred guests. 294 00:16:29,769 --> 00:16:33,319 You know, a lot of the episodes are long form series, so we have the same 295 00:16:33,319 --> 00:16:37,009 guests over and over, but I'd say we're, we've got to be over a hundred guests. 296 00:16:38,844 --> 00:16:45,894 And the fact that there are so many different answers to that question that 297 00:16:46,214 --> 00:16:52,714 make sense in certain contexts, um, it's like asking one of these other profound 298 00:16:52,714 --> 00:16:54,594 questions, like, you know, what is truth? 299 00:16:54,614 --> 00:16:55,704 What is justice? 300 00:16:56,424 --> 00:16:57,504 What is beauty? 301 00:16:57,504 --> 00:16:58,634 What is love? 302 00:16:59,514 --> 00:17:06,048 You know, You would think that these very, essential terms that we use 303 00:17:06,498 --> 00:17:10,918 would have very clear definitions that might be your intuitive position. 304 00:17:11,358 --> 00:17:13,618 It's like, well, of course we should know what truth is. 305 00:17:13,618 --> 00:17:16,198 You know, it's like one of the most important things in the world where 306 00:17:16,458 --> 00:17:20,178 we talk about it all the time, but then when you actually get into it 307 00:17:20,188 --> 00:17:23,808 and you try to define truth, you see that philosophers have been debating 308 00:17:23,808 --> 00:17:27,593 it for Many, many centuries and it continues to be a debate and there's 309 00:17:27,843 --> 00:17:29,293 different forms of truth, right? 310 00:17:29,293 --> 00:17:32,843 There's pragmatic truths and transcendental truth, 311 00:17:33,093 --> 00:17:33,813 et cetera, et cetera. 312 00:17:33,823 --> 00:17:39,803 So money for some reason is one of those terms, apparently one of these 313 00:17:39,803 --> 00:17:44,083 very potent, uh, essential terms. 314 00:17:44,103 --> 00:17:45,453 You know, it's an essential tool. 315 00:17:45,493 --> 00:17:48,983 Obviously everyone, every trading society. 316 00:17:49,968 --> 00:17:51,978 Has money or some form of money. 317 00:17:52,498 --> 00:17:56,008 Uh, you could also say that money's more of an attribute, right? 318 00:17:56,038 --> 00:17:57,718 Than, than necessarily a thing. 319 00:17:58,688 --> 00:18:03,078 Yeah, an adjective is what we said in the last talk we had, 320 00:18:03,198 --> 00:18:03,438 Yeah. 321 00:18:03,438 --> 00:18:04,278 An adjective, right? 322 00:18:04,278 --> 00:18:09,258 Because every asset that is traded in a marketplace has some degree of moneys, 323 00:18:09,648 --> 00:18:12,478 which is commensurate with its liquidity. 324 00:18:12,988 --> 00:18:16,768 And the thing that has the most moneys is the thing we call money, basically. 325 00:18:17,528 --> 00:18:26,458 so the, the very interesting realization that I've had or am having still is how. 326 00:18:28,103 --> 00:18:32,983 Indispensable, let's say, let's say insufficient languages, first of all, 327 00:18:32,983 --> 00:18:38,893 for describing this complex fluid world continuum that we all inhabit, you know, 328 00:18:38,893 --> 00:18:42,123 we're using these little discrete data packets called words and trying to map it 329 00:18:42,123 --> 00:18:44,793 onto this fluid domain we call reality. 330 00:18:45,473 --> 00:18:46,643 So it's insufficient. 331 00:18:46,988 --> 00:18:52,668 Yet, it's also indispensable in that it is the best tool we have for, well, 332 00:18:52,678 --> 00:18:57,628 thinking, communicating, rationalizing, reflecting, you know, calculating, etc. 333 00:18:58,418 --> 00:19:04,928 So been my big takeaway, I guess, from doing the show. 334 00:19:04,988 --> 00:19:07,148 Not takeaway, I'm not, it's nothing to take away. 335 00:19:07,148 --> 00:19:08,508 It's something I'm still thinking about. 336 00:19:08,508 --> 00:19:12,258 It's like, how do you describe the nature of language itself? 337 00:19:12,258 --> 00:19:14,278 And it's taken me into a lot of rabbit holes. 338 00:19:14,308 --> 00:19:20,868 Um, now to answer your question a little more directly, I still think. 339 00:19:21,108 --> 00:19:30,448 The most useful conception of money is as a storehouse or reservoir of time, 340 00:19:30,498 --> 00:19:36,046 you know, you might say human time, you might say lifetime, and it's not just 341 00:19:36,046 --> 00:19:39,566 money though, it's really capital, right? 342 00:19:39,566 --> 00:19:44,526 Capital is the result of human spending time, effort, and energy to create 343 00:19:44,556 --> 00:19:50,161 things That amplify the productivity of others or allow future consumption 344 00:19:50,211 --> 00:19:52,081 for themselves or other people. 345 00:19:52,571 --> 00:19:58,681 So all capital is kind of like a, a stored form of human time, but then 346 00:19:58,681 --> 00:20:04,511 money is just the, the form of capital that is most liquid, most tradable. 347 00:20:05,101 --> 00:20:05,841 And so. 348 00:20:06,341 --> 00:20:12,091 It becomes a very close reflection of time, and you see that in just 349 00:20:12,551 --> 00:20:15,801 people's day to day use of money, right, in that you go to work, you 350 00:20:16,291 --> 00:20:20,901 trade time for money, and then you take that money back into the marketplace. 351 00:20:21,716 --> 00:20:24,136 And you trade that money for the time of others. 352 00:20:24,166 --> 00:20:27,676 So people will serve you at the restaurant or building you a house or making 353 00:20:27,676 --> 00:20:29,476 you shoes or whatever the thing is. 354 00:20:30,346 --> 00:20:35,526 So I think there's a lot of intuitive value in framing it as time. 355 00:20:35,656 --> 00:20:39,496 And then I think it's also very useful for. 356 00:20:40,291 --> 00:20:43,711 Explicating the malevolent nature of central banking, where you're 357 00:20:43,711 --> 00:20:47,421 like, okay, if there's a currency counterfeiting monopoly, everyone's 358 00:20:47,421 --> 00:20:52,641 forced to use this stuff, they're stealing purchasing power through, you know, 359 00:20:52,641 --> 00:20:54,841 arbitrarily inflating the money supply. 360 00:20:54,881 --> 00:20:56,051 Well, what does that equate to? 361 00:20:56,051 --> 00:20:58,231 If money is time, okay. 362 00:20:58,231 --> 00:21:00,301 It's systematic time theft, right? 363 00:21:00,301 --> 00:21:04,291 People are having their time stolen systematically with every dollar printed. 364 00:21:05,201 --> 00:21:10,451 So, um, I guess that is still the answer that I lean on the most. 365 00:21:10,451 --> 00:21:13,361 I also think, you know, obviously Saylor bringing this whole perspective 366 00:21:14,041 --> 00:21:17,971 of money as energy to the table is a big deal because you could equally 367 00:21:17,971 --> 00:21:23,336 argue it's, well, money is time, money is energy, or As we've often 368 00:21:23,336 --> 00:21:25,006 said too, money is power, right? 369 00:21:25,006 --> 00:21:28,556 And power is a product of time and energy, right? 370 00:21:28,566 --> 00:21:33,066 It's the, I think power is the capacity to move energy over time, right? 371 00:21:33,599 --> 00:21:36,529 Or perform work over time, something like that in a physics sense. 372 00:21:36,539 --> 00:21:39,574 So again, you ask this question, what is money? 373 00:21:39,574 --> 00:21:46,439 And you end up in very fundamental domains like physics and, um, You 374 00:21:46,439 --> 00:21:48,229 know, time, like what is time? 375 00:21:48,229 --> 00:21:50,609 Time is probably the most mysterious thing in the universe. 376 00:21:51,209 --> 00:21:55,389 So it's maybe not useful from like a very practical standpoint to say money 377 00:21:55,389 --> 00:22:00,589 is time, but I think it's very useful from a philosophical standpoint in 378 00:22:00,659 --> 00:22:05,679 giving people somewhat of an intuitive explanatory framework to deal with 379 00:22:05,679 --> 00:22:08,409 this very abstract, mysterious notion. 380 00:22:09,228 --> 00:22:13,948 all right, so about communication and language in general, um, there's 381 00:22:13,948 --> 00:22:20,288 some points I have there, um, like, if, if we want to apply the non, 382 00:22:20,288 --> 00:22:24,493 non aggression principle, and if we want to Not use violence in any 383 00:22:24,493 --> 00:22:30,323 shape or form or fetch thereof, then in my mind, at least communication 384 00:22:30,323 --> 00:22:32,063 is the only tool we have left. 385 00:22:32,113 --> 00:22:37,723 Like it's, it's not only, you know, a tool, it's the tool that there, there 386 00:22:37,723 --> 00:22:39,483 are no other tools in the toolbox. 387 00:22:39,483 --> 00:22:46,023 Once, once you, once you, once you do not allow yourself to use force anymore. 388 00:22:46,733 --> 00:22:47,983 So that's the only thing we have. 389 00:22:47,983 --> 00:22:53,323 So we need, so clear definitions of words are crucial to that. 390 00:22:53,343 --> 00:22:58,213 And that's why one of the things I like so much about Mises in particular, 391 00:22:58,213 --> 00:23:03,103 that he's very, very careful with words and the definition of them. 392 00:23:03,593 --> 00:23:10,853 And to, I mean, I do agree that truth is a, uh, a very hard word to define, but 393 00:23:10,983 --> 00:23:13,703 the word true, the words true and false. 394 00:23:14,763 --> 00:23:21,143 In a sense are the binary of any language because we define everything else by 395 00:23:21,303 --> 00:23:26,153 having these, this binary base layer of language, which is that is true. 396 00:23:26,173 --> 00:23:27,053 And that is false. 397 00:23:27,133 --> 00:23:29,773 I mean, is truth hard to define? 398 00:23:30,143 --> 00:23:31,803 Yes, that is true. 399 00:23:31,893 --> 00:23:37,103 I mean, there's always, you can always boil down communication to these yin 400 00:23:37,103 --> 00:23:39,983 yang ones and zeros, true and false. 401 00:23:40,353 --> 00:23:46,428 So, so the word true, is, in a sense, easier to define than the word truth, and 402 00:23:46,428 --> 00:23:50,038 even easier than the word truthfulness, which is very hard to define. 403 00:23:50,488 --> 00:23:56,328 Um, because that implies some form of subjectivity, but what do you say to that? 404 00:23:56,538 --> 00:23:57,228 What are your thoughts? 405 00:23:57,843 --> 00:23:59,843 so there's a strange thing here. 406 00:23:59,893 --> 00:24:00,343 Okay. 407 00:24:01,583 --> 00:24:08,193 First of all, the importance of, and maybe this is why money is so hard to define 408 00:24:08,213 --> 00:24:12,333 as well, but I would say words, right? 409 00:24:12,333 --> 00:24:13,093 Language. 410 00:24:13,153 --> 00:24:14,683 This is a form. 411 00:24:15,728 --> 00:24:20,848 Words are a media of exchange, just like money is a, you know, Mises would say, 412 00:24:20,978 --> 00:24:22,998 money is a universal medium of exchange. 413 00:24:23,668 --> 00:24:25,578 Well, I would say so are words, right? 414 00:24:25,578 --> 00:24:29,058 We're, we're just using them to exchange as a medium to exchange 415 00:24:29,058 --> 00:24:31,558 human conceptions or ideas. 416 00:24:32,443 --> 00:24:35,983 Whereas money we're using to, as a medium of exchange for actual 417 00:24:36,083 --> 00:24:37,973 goods and services, capital, right? 418 00:24:37,973 --> 00:24:39,873 The results of human action, let's say. 419 00:24:40,793 --> 00:24:46,473 So maybe it's because of these, these intermediary devices. 420 00:24:47,353 --> 00:24:49,693 They're a little bit hard to pin down and define. 421 00:24:50,713 --> 00:24:56,723 Um, I do agree with you that absent rationality, all that 422 00:24:56,723 --> 00:24:58,803 really remains is raw power, right? 423 00:24:58,803 --> 00:24:59,703 It's might is right. 424 00:24:59,783 --> 00:25:00,763 If you can't have... 425 00:25:01,456 --> 00:25:04,866 Precise definitions that both people have consensus on, which 426 00:25:04,866 --> 00:25:06,156 is obviously very important. 427 00:25:06,766 --> 00:25:11,076 Your notion of the number 7 needs to match my notion of the number 7 for 428 00:25:11,076 --> 00:25:15,890 us to have rational communication about mathematics, for instance, which 429 00:25:15,890 --> 00:25:18,960 is another way of saying there has to be social consensus on each term. 430 00:25:19,950 --> 00:25:24,820 If you don't have that, right, if you have a lack of consensus or no language 431 00:25:24,820 --> 00:25:29,480 at all, no rationality, no rational argumentation, then what's left, right? 432 00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:31,200 It's just pure animality. 433 00:25:31,850 --> 00:25:33,810 Who, who can beat up who? 434 00:25:34,427 --> 00:25:39,257 Well, this boils back to Hoppe's argumentation ethics, which I find so 435 00:25:39,257 --> 00:25:44,337 insanely fascinating, because like, even if we don't have consensus on what the 436 00:25:44,347 --> 00:25:50,767 number seven means, We can allow ourselves to agree to disagree and like, there's 437 00:25:50,797 --> 00:25:55,357 where conversation ends, but as long as there's no, you know, property to fight 438 00:25:55,377 --> 00:25:57,887 over, we can still agree to disagree. 439 00:25:58,332 --> 00:26:01,992 Well, you can, uh, you, you can agree to disagree to the extent that rational 440 00:26:02,002 --> 00:26:03,682 communication is possible between you. 441 00:26:04,112 --> 00:26:05,062 That's the point that I'm trying to make. 442 00:26:05,637 --> 00:26:05,847 Yeah. 443 00:26:05,877 --> 00:26:06,237 Yeah. 444 00:26:06,587 --> 00:26:07,187 Totally agree. 445 00:26:07,187 --> 00:26:13,208 And, um, what's so fascinating here about Bitcoin, Is that it's nothing 446 00:26:13,208 --> 00:26:16,248 but, uh, an agreement to disagree. 447 00:26:16,348 --> 00:26:19,338 Like, that is what Bitcoiners do. 448 00:26:19,348 --> 00:26:26,137 We agree to disagree, and because we know that it's, it's, uh, it's harder 449 00:26:26,137 --> 00:26:30,207 to, it's more expensive to try to cheat the system than to just follow the rules. 450 00:26:30,467 --> 00:26:36,203 And also, like, insanely fascinating that Bitcoin has sort of teared down 451 00:26:36,203 --> 00:26:38,943 that wall between money and language. 452 00:26:39,443 --> 00:26:44,133 It is the same thing now, it is just communication, like we, we, provably so, 453 00:26:44,133 --> 00:26:50,101 we can exchange goods and services for a, for a number, which we can hold in 454 00:26:50,101 --> 00:26:56,061 our heads and, uh, we don't need anything but that, it's just communication and 455 00:26:56,061 --> 00:26:59,621 all the computers involved are just an extension of our mind and all this, uh, 456 00:27:00,231 --> 00:27:05,176 mumbo jumbo, uh, About all the time, like how you are your Bitcoin, like 457 00:27:05,176 --> 00:27:06,996 there's a sense they are information. 458 00:27:06,996 --> 00:27:12,406 There's no nothing separating you yourself from your Bitcoin. 459 00:27:12,416 --> 00:27:12,866 Really? 460 00:27:13,236 --> 00:27:14,896 It's just an extension of your mind. 461 00:27:14,896 --> 00:27:16,466 It's it lives with within you. 462 00:27:16,466 --> 00:27:19,656 And I think that that is what makes it so. 463 00:27:20,626 --> 00:27:22,336 Obvious that it's communication. 464 00:27:22,416 --> 00:27:26,376 And if money is just communication, well, that changes everything. 465 00:27:26,476 --> 00:27:32,686 Like, so this whole notion that we're being robbed by inflation, 466 00:27:33,196 --> 00:27:39,046 is that really involuntary or did we put ourselves in that situation? 467 00:27:39,186 --> 00:27:43,406 Did we, did humanity like choose to trust these things? 468 00:27:43,496 --> 00:27:44,646 And was that a bad choice? 469 00:27:44,646 --> 00:27:47,999 Like how, how enforced were government? 470 00:27:49,749 --> 00:27:51,129 Issued currencies, really? 471 00:27:51,159 --> 00:27:54,459 And how much did we just fall for it, like, en masse? 472 00:27:54,841 --> 00:27:59,531 And back to the very, the importance of precise definitions here. 473 00:27:59,531 --> 00:28:05,291 I would say that, yeah, holding an inflationary currency or a 474 00:28:05,291 --> 00:28:09,721 fiat currency where you can have your purchasing power stolen. 475 00:28:10,051 --> 00:28:18,501 VIA inflation is voluntary, however, it is not consensual, uh, and Mr. 476 00:28:18,501 --> 00:28:21,351 Kinsella, I can thank him for taking me to task on this. 477 00:28:21,381 --> 00:28:25,001 I used to always talk about voluntary exchange, how important it is. 478 00:28:25,001 --> 00:28:29,581 He's like, well, actually the definition of all, like he's the 479 00:28:29,581 --> 00:28:31,401 example of the mugger, right? 480 00:28:31,401 --> 00:28:32,096 When you. 481 00:28:32,256 --> 00:28:36,636 Get mugged in the back alley, someone puts a gun to you and 482 00:28:36,636 --> 00:28:37,906 says, give me your wallet. 483 00:28:38,826 --> 00:28:42,776 Well, you voluntarily hand the mugger your wallet, right? 484 00:28:42,776 --> 00:28:46,716 You control your arm and decide, you know, the cost of me saying 485 00:28:46,716 --> 00:28:50,836 no to this guy is higher than the benefit of me giving up my wallet. 486 00:28:50,836 --> 00:28:53,236 So I'm going to hand him my wallet voluntarily. 487 00:28:54,036 --> 00:28:58,736 However, you're doing it under the threat of violence or coercion. 488 00:28:58,776 --> 00:28:59,606 So you're not. 489 00:28:59,966 --> 00:29:04,626 Surrendering your wallet consensually, although you are doing it voluntarily. 490 00:29:05,576 --> 00:29:09,206 An example of something that's involuntary would be a seizure 491 00:29:09,226 --> 00:29:10,446 or a heart attack, right? 492 00:29:10,446 --> 00:29:12,096 Something that you can't control. 493 00:29:12,306 --> 00:29:17,594 Just your biology just controls you basically in that situation. 494 00:29:17,604 --> 00:29:21,334 So when I look at central banking. 495 00:29:21,574 --> 00:29:27,574 You have a legal monopoly that preserves the currency counterfeiting, um, or 496 00:29:27,594 --> 00:29:31,574 arrogates the currency counterfeiting privilege to one group of shareholders 497 00:29:31,954 --> 00:29:34,574 and allows them to externalize that onto everyone else, right? 498 00:29:34,574 --> 00:29:37,404 The guns are pointed out, as I always like to say. 499 00:29:37,954 --> 00:29:39,254 They're protecting the future. 500 00:29:39,444 --> 00:29:42,324 Uh, central bank currency counterfeiting monopoly, but the guns are pointed 501 00:29:42,334 --> 00:29:45,464 out such that everyone else is effectively forced to use it. 502 00:29:46,332 --> 00:29:50,302 now, again, you're not forced, like, again, it's still voluntary. 503 00:29:50,342 --> 00:29:54,842 We could all just choose to have used physical gold all this time and said, no, 504 00:29:54,842 --> 00:29:56,312 we're never going to use your paper money. 505 00:29:56,895 --> 00:30:00,125 but obviously, as a means of practicality, that doesn't work. 506 00:30:00,835 --> 00:30:03,685 It's hard to buy coffee with gold, right? 507 00:30:03,685 --> 00:30:06,415 It's hard to move gold around safely. 508 00:30:06,425 --> 00:30:07,225 There's all these. 509 00:30:08,180 --> 00:30:14,170 Problems with using gold for day to day transactions, um, in a way that's 510 00:30:14,260 --> 00:30:16,460 not, that's not centrally custodied. 511 00:30:17,370 --> 00:30:17,920 So, 512 00:30:17,950 --> 00:30:19,730 any other commodity for that matter. 513 00:30:20,030 --> 00:30:20,950 yes, exactly. 514 00:30:21,030 --> 00:30:25,270 So to answer the question, it's like, yes, holding an 515 00:30:25,270 --> 00:30:27,590 inflationary currency is voluntary. 516 00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:28,940 You're doing it voluntarily. 517 00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:32,900 You could sell all your dollars and buy physical gold and put it in your backyard. 518 00:30:33,260 --> 00:30:35,260 Now with Bitcoin, it's even easier, right? 519 00:30:35,280 --> 00:30:36,780 You can just hold Bitcoin. 520 00:30:37,266 --> 00:30:39,486 so every time you do choose to. 521 00:30:39,816 --> 00:30:45,106 Trade something, $4 or hold dollars in an account, you're doing that voluntarily, 522 00:30:45,856 --> 00:30:50,356 but your purchasing power nonetheless, is being stolen from you non consensually, 523 00:30:51,096 --> 00:30:55,476 and that you're participating, even though you've voluntarily put yourself into this 524 00:30:55,686 --> 00:31:02,156 legal monopoly, you're not voting for, uh, the counterfeiting of currency, right? 525 00:31:02,156 --> 00:31:03,836 You're not, you're not supporting it. 526 00:31:03,836 --> 00:31:05,246 You're not approving it. 527 00:31:05,916 --> 00:31:06,576 You're not really. 528 00:31:06,976 --> 00:31:09,156 I guess you could argue you're opting into it if you have the 529 00:31:09,156 --> 00:31:12,546 right level of understanding, but most people clearly don't. 530 00:31:13,388 --> 00:31:18,068 and that level of general level of understanding is intentionally kept low. 531 00:31:18,698 --> 00:31:22,488 I always like to talk about, I have a master's degree in 532 00:31:22,488 --> 00:31:23,738 accounting and finance, right? 533 00:31:23,738 --> 00:31:28,378 You would think I would know something from my mainstream education about central 534 00:31:28,378 --> 00:31:30,058 banking, about the nature of money. 535 00:31:30,608 --> 00:31:31,328 Something, right? 536 00:31:31,328 --> 00:31:33,858 It's literally just the language of business. 537 00:31:34,419 --> 00:31:37,229 everything we learn is about how money moves in and out of 538 00:31:37,229 --> 00:31:39,889 businesses, how taxation works. 539 00:31:39,919 --> 00:31:46,889 My focus was in taxation, yet there was not one single line of education given to 540 00:31:46,889 --> 00:31:51,449 me about Austrian economics, the nature of money, no talk about central banking, 541 00:31:52,279 --> 00:31:56,449 uh, no talk about the trade offs and opportunity costs that governments exist. 542 00:31:56,979 --> 00:32:02,199 And bureaucracies and central banks face, you know, they're just treated as these. 543 00:32:03,309 --> 00:32:05,499 organizations inside of the textbooks, right? 544 00:32:05,519 --> 00:32:08,489 The government just puts new currency into circulation and takes 545 00:32:08,489 --> 00:32:09,899 new currency out of circulation. 546 00:32:10,039 --> 00:32:14,429 Like you don't, there's a black box there that the education system doesn't go into. 547 00:32:15,049 --> 00:32:23,239 So it's pretty clear that, um, the existing paradigm seeks to protect 548 00:32:23,239 --> 00:32:29,079 itself intellectually by not going into the nature of money, where it comes 549 00:32:29,079 --> 00:32:31,139 from, Austrian economics, et cetera. 550 00:32:32,109 --> 00:32:36,569 Um, so, yes, it is voluntary, but not consensual. 551 00:32:38,169 --> 00:32:41,779 Yeah, funny, funny you should give that answer because I, I, uh, I love 552 00:32:41,779 --> 00:32:45,389 the Kinsella series you did, the series you did with Stefan Kinsella. 553 00:32:45,849 --> 00:32:51,019 Uh, and it influenced why I nowadays call myself a consensualist 554 00:32:51,109 --> 00:32:52,389 rather than a voluntarist. 555 00:32:53,229 --> 00:32:54,849 I mean, I think I went from... 556 00:32:55,214 --> 00:33:02,574 Libertarian leaning to anarcho capitalist, which is sort of too aggressive, and then 557 00:33:02,624 --> 00:33:07,955 voluntarist and now consensualist because I think consensualist frames it better. 558 00:33:08,015 --> 00:33:11,885 Like, I'd like as many interactions between human beings 559 00:33:11,885 --> 00:33:13,765 to be consensual as possible. 560 00:33:14,055 --> 00:33:20,656 Like, that should be the The guiding principle for your opinion on 561 00:33:20,756 --> 00:33:23,026 everything else, like if you have that. 562 00:33:23,515 --> 00:33:26,695 It's like the apex of human rationality, right? 563 00:33:26,695 --> 00:33:30,395 It's like, of course, you want to respect that we're all rational 564 00:33:30,405 --> 00:33:33,255 beings and we're all capable of deciding for ourselves, so we don't 565 00:33:33,265 --> 00:33:35,865 need to be coerced into doing things. 566 00:33:36,825 --> 00:33:43,785 And I think this notion is pretty obvious if you look at the dating market, right? 567 00:33:45,445 --> 00:33:49,905 Now, there have been arranged marriages, there still are arranged marriages, 568 00:33:49,905 --> 00:33:53,465 there still is some degree of pressure, perhaps in some cultures, to put people 569 00:33:53,465 --> 00:33:55,935 into certain, uh, marital arrangements. 570 00:33:56,745 --> 00:34:00,975 But in general, I think the moral intuitions in the West are that we 571 00:34:01,105 --> 00:34:03,115 should all be free to choose our own. 572 00:34:03,310 --> 00:34:04,150 partner, right? 573 00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:08,080 Or, or partners would date whoever we want, marry whoever we 574 00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:09,580 want, if we want to get married. 575 00:34:10,347 --> 00:34:14,317 it would be pretty hard to sell the idea of having a non 576 00:34:14,317 --> 00:34:16,077 consensual dating market, right? 577 00:34:16,157 --> 00:34:21,457 Where someone gets to coerce you into being, uh, their boyfriend or girlfriend. 578 00:34:22,532 --> 00:34:26,092 And you know, another way that I've framed this, and it's not always very 579 00:34:26,092 --> 00:34:32,832 popular, but the difference between a job and slavery is consent, right? 580 00:34:32,832 --> 00:34:36,412 You can quit the job, you can say no, and you can go get another job. 581 00:34:36,892 --> 00:34:40,752 If you're a physical slave in the traditional sense, well, you 582 00:34:40,752 --> 00:34:42,612 can't, there's no opt out, right? 583 00:34:42,612 --> 00:34:45,572 You're, you are enslaved against your consent. 584 00:34:46,432 --> 00:34:50,982 Uh, the difference between a financial transaction and 585 00:34:51,112 --> 00:34:54,252 taxation or theft is Consent. 586 00:34:55,052 --> 00:34:58,652 If I can say no to the transaction, take my business elsewhere, as 587 00:34:58,652 --> 00:35:00,802 can you, then we're, it's good. 588 00:35:00,802 --> 00:35:04,432 We're all consensual, but if I refuse the transaction and there's 589 00:35:04,452 --> 00:35:07,632 a threat of coercion, well, then that's the same situation I'm in 590 00:35:07,642 --> 00:35:09,052 with a mugger in the alley, right? 591 00:35:09,082 --> 00:35:11,782 I don't want to give you my wallet for free. 592 00:35:11,822 --> 00:35:13,462 It's like, okay, well, then I'll shoot you. 593 00:35:13,612 --> 00:35:13,882 Right? 594 00:35:13,882 --> 00:35:16,272 So that's obviously theft we wouldn't call it a transaction ai 595 00:35:22,237 --> 00:35:24,117 Getting mugged or getting robbed. 596 00:35:25,027 --> 00:35:29,087 And in terms of the dating market, you know, the difference between 597 00:35:29,437 --> 00:35:33,007 sex and rape is consent, right? 598 00:35:33,037 --> 00:35:37,407 Both parties need to be willing, able, and consenting to have a 599 00:35:37,457 --> 00:35:40,747 normal sexual engagement between two. 600 00:35:41,082 --> 00:35:45,752 Uh, willing adults, if that's absent on either side, right, if 601 00:35:45,752 --> 00:35:48,632 there's either party that wants to say no but they're forced into it, 602 00:35:48,642 --> 00:35:50,252 well, then we would call that rape. 603 00:35:50,912 --> 00:35:54,842 So, you know, consent is very, very, very important and I think we 604 00:35:54,842 --> 00:35:56,782 should strive to universalize it. 605 00:35:56,912 --> 00:36:01,902 I mean, it's the only way, it's the only rational way to deal with the 606 00:36:01,942 --> 00:36:06,092 reality that we are all rational beings and capable of choosing for ourselves. 607 00:36:07,205 --> 00:36:11,795 Yeah, this once again reminds me of Hoppe's argumentation ethics, which 608 00:36:11,795 --> 00:36:17,720 basically say that if you have to If you argue with someone, you have to 609 00:36:17,720 --> 00:36:21,410 respect their property rights, because property rights are derived from the 610 00:36:21,410 --> 00:36:23,250 fact that you own your own faculties. 611 00:36:23,650 --> 00:36:27,510 If you don't accept that, that you're using your tongue and your vocal cords 612 00:36:27,510 --> 00:36:32,340 and your lungs and so on to talk to, so that you're in possession of them and 613 00:36:32,340 --> 00:36:37,090 you own them, if you don't respect that in the other person, uh, so, so if you 614 00:36:37,140 --> 00:36:43,660 argue about something, the ownership of something, or, uh, who's the rightful 615 00:36:43,660 --> 00:36:46,050 owner of something, and the conclusion... 616 00:36:46,725 --> 00:36:52,665 And you discard the conclusion and then choose to, to take instead. 617 00:36:52,715 --> 00:36:57,235 So like if you argue about taxes with a taxman, for instance, and the taxman 618 00:36:58,035 --> 00:37:04,365 agrees with you about everything you say, but then still chooses to, to, uh, to 619 00:37:04,375 --> 00:37:09,520 force you to pay the taxes, it's That's when the argument turns into mockery. 620 00:37:10,110 --> 00:37:13,310 Like, it's not an argument anymore, it's just, he's just a bully. 621 00:37:14,380 --> 00:37:19,770 So it's not, the argument ceases to be, argumentation ceases to be 622 00:37:19,770 --> 00:37:24,840 argumentation once property rights are violated in any way, shape, or form. 623 00:37:26,270 --> 00:37:30,740 On this notion, like the thing you said about consent, like, I love another 624 00:37:30,740 --> 00:37:34,780 series of yours that I highly recommend is the Hillebrand series with our 625 00:37:34,780 --> 00:37:39,410 friend Max Hillebrand, where you talk about the books, the Rothbard book, 626 00:37:39,780 --> 00:37:44,410 The Ethics of Liberty, which is one of my favorite Austrian economics books, 627 00:37:44,660 --> 00:37:46,114 that one, and Max Hillebrand's books. 628 00:37:46,565 --> 00:37:50,445 Hoppus, um, which is another recommendation from Max, by 629 00:37:50,445 --> 00:37:55,245 the way, the, the, um, economic science and the Austrian method. 630 00:37:55,245 --> 00:37:55,695 I think it's 631 00:37:55,730 --> 00:37:56,265 the title. 632 00:37:56,265 --> 00:38:02,345 It's, uh, yeah, it's, it's not a very click baity title, but, uh, 633 00:38:02,355 --> 00:38:04,455 but it's a great, very dense book. 634 00:38:04,455 --> 00:38:09,434 And those two books, I think they, they, uh, they frame this so well, uh, and. 635 00:38:10,235 --> 00:38:12,735 Just about the things you've been talking about here about 636 00:38:12,905 --> 00:38:14,735 consent and how important it 637 00:38:15,102 --> 00:38:17,582 I have a, I actually have some stuff to say about that book. 638 00:38:18,072 --> 00:38:21,892 Um, I, that's a really, really, really good book. 639 00:38:22,332 --> 00:38:23,982 Hoppe's got a lot of good stuff. 640 00:38:25,182 --> 00:38:27,932 Very unsexy title, as you said, Economic Science and the 641 00:38:27,932 --> 00:38:30,292 Austrian Method, ESAM for short. 642 00:38:30,932 --> 00:38:36,612 very short book, but like most of Hoppe's writing, very dense, very informative. 643 00:38:37,416 --> 00:38:40,496 I, I was blown away actually that he. 644 00:38:41,176 --> 00:38:45,482 One of the points that I took away from that book was that he's saying that, 645 00:38:45,482 --> 00:38:50,752 like, the, the mind matter split, right, the, the Cartesian split that we all 646 00:38:51,072 --> 00:38:55,032 sort of inherited when, when Descartes said, I think, therefore, I am, as if 647 00:38:55,032 --> 00:38:57,562 there's two fundamental realities, right? 648 00:38:57,562 --> 00:39:01,902 There's the subjective thinking mind, and then there is the objective world. 649 00:39:02,535 --> 00:39:04,945 Hoppe makes this point that it's actually... 650 00:39:05,245 --> 00:39:11,015 That perhaps, actually, this distinction between mind and matter, or between 651 00:39:11,015 --> 00:39:17,555 subject and object, is a subcategory of human action, because it is only 652 00:39:17,575 --> 00:39:21,755 through human action where mind and matter come together, right? 653 00:39:22,515 --> 00:39:25,755 It's almost like we're using this distinction is like an 654 00:39:25,765 --> 00:39:29,776 artificial distinction that's useful in many ways, right? 655 00:39:29,776 --> 00:39:31,086 We could say all value is the 656 00:39:35,146 --> 00:39:41,076 mind rather than a matter of the world, but somehow action is like above that. 657 00:39:41,106 --> 00:39:46,116 Even action is the thing that allows subject and object duality to even 658 00:39:46,116 --> 00:39:51,611 come into existence where many of us, I think Western materialist worldview 659 00:39:51,641 --> 00:39:55,191 takes subject object reality to be the most fundamental thing there is, right? 660 00:39:55,191 --> 00:39:58,861 That there is an actual split between mind and matter. 661 00:39:59,511 --> 00:40:03,421 Whereas in fact, it seems to be most things are continuous, right? 662 00:40:03,741 --> 00:40:07,881 I don't know that there's an actual, out there, discrete 663 00:40:08,191 --> 00:40:09,551 split between mind and matter. 664 00:40:09,551 --> 00:40:11,741 So that, that blew my mind. 665 00:40:11,925 --> 00:40:16,085 again, just the, the primacy of human action and how it's... 666 00:40:16,675 --> 00:40:17,455 It's everywhere. 667 00:40:17,455 --> 00:40:22,515 And I think that again, ties nicely back into that book, Leela, where Persig 668 00:40:22,515 --> 00:40:26,805 saying it almost in a different way, that value is the ground stuff of reality. 669 00:40:26,805 --> 00:40:30,845 They're like, there's no substance, like value is the substance. 670 00:40:31,605 --> 00:40:32,225 And it's something 671 00:40:32,305 --> 00:40:36,045 Actually, would you mind giving us a TLDR on that book for anyone 672 00:40:36,045 --> 00:40:36,985 who's not familiar with it? 673 00:40:37,345 --> 00:40:38,615 TLDR on Leela. 674 00:40:38,645 --> 00:40:42,555 Um, yeah, I would mind because I don't know that that's actually possible. 675 00:40:43,247 --> 00:40:44,697 let me just say, so he's the. 676 00:40:45,477 --> 00:40:48,257 The author of Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance, which was the 677 00:40:48,257 --> 00:40:52,667 most popular or best selling philosophy book in the West, I think in the 678 00:40:52,667 --> 00:40:54,317 20th century, something like that. 679 00:40:54,777 --> 00:40:56,367 One of the best, maybe not the best. 680 00:40:57,187 --> 00:40:59,077 Uh, many people have read that one. 681 00:40:59,137 --> 00:41:00,967 Many people have heard of it, if they haven't read it. 682 00:41:01,577 --> 00:41:04,927 Almost no one's heard of or read the book he wrote 15 years later, 683 00:41:04,927 --> 00:41:06,797 which is Lila, which is much better. 684 00:41:07,637 --> 00:41:08,267 And Persig... 685 00:41:09,047 --> 00:41:11,147 Man, he's just like a next level genius. 686 00:41:11,147 --> 00:41:14,287 He blends fiction. 687 00:41:15,307 --> 00:41:19,337 So there's like a fictional story blended with some elements of autobiography. 688 00:41:19,337 --> 00:41:22,857 He's actually writing about himself and his life and some of his experiences 689 00:41:22,857 --> 00:41:24,417 blended into this fictional narrative. 690 00:41:24,917 --> 00:41:29,977 And then there's a non fictional, uh, philosophical exploration about the nature 691 00:41:29,977 --> 00:41:33,437 of metaphysics and, uh, value and quality. 692 00:41:33,767 --> 00:41:36,177 He distinguishes between dynamic and static. 693 00:41:36,597 --> 00:41:37,957 Value, et cetera. 694 00:41:40,767 --> 00:41:43,566 Um, the TLDR, I don't have a TLDR. 695 00:41:43,776 --> 00:41:47,946 He just gets into like all the things we're talking about. 696 00:41:47,946 --> 00:41:53,406 We're talking about the nature of value, the continuity between, you 697 00:41:53,406 --> 00:41:55,466 know, an organic and organic reality. 698 00:41:55,466 --> 00:41:59,486 Let's say he gives different levels of value is the inorganic layer. 699 00:42:00,274 --> 00:42:04,004 biological, social, and intellectual, there's different patterns of 700 00:42:04,004 --> 00:42:05,474 value that basically interact. 701 00:42:06,244 --> 00:42:12,514 He describes how these layers interact, sort of like a software system, um, 702 00:42:12,514 --> 00:42:16,874 and it gives rise to basically a whole metaphysical framework that he 703 00:42:16,874 --> 00:42:23,914 puts forth that stuff and substance is not real, value and morality is. 704 00:42:24,544 --> 00:42:29,204 So it's a, it's a very strong argument for the, the fundamental nature of, of. 705 00:42:29,919 --> 00:42:33,229 I guess you could say human action or value itself. 706 00:42:33,919 --> 00:42:38,849 And, um, again, the ESAM book just sort of dovetails nicely with that 707 00:42:38,849 --> 00:42:41,519 one, where it's like making the argument that human action is this. 708 00:42:43,109 --> 00:42:46,099 Has this primacy that most people don't understand. 709 00:42:46,099 --> 00:42:49,879 And again, if all action is an expression of value, then we're kind of dancing 710 00:42:49,879 --> 00:42:52,329 around the same topic here, right? 711 00:42:52,329 --> 00:42:56,839 When, when you hear many people invoke the word value is again, why I was 712 00:42:57,419 --> 00:43:00,709 hearkening to Peterson earlier, like, I'd love to hear his like deep definition. 713 00:43:01,159 --> 00:43:04,449 I don't see how you escape human action. 714 00:43:04,499 --> 00:43:07,129 Like it's the, to act is to value, right? 715 00:43:07,129 --> 00:43:08,649 To, to express one's value. 716 00:43:09,739 --> 00:43:10,519 And so. 717 00:43:12,214 --> 00:43:16,144 Yeah, that's, I guess that's what I would say about ESAM in general, and then I, 718 00:43:16,204 --> 00:43:21,684 just to circle back to something you said earlier, Knut, about the tax man, you 719 00:43:21,684 --> 00:43:26,474 know, you're, when you argue with someone, which was Hoppe's point, I think, you're 720 00:43:26,504 --> 00:43:33,584 implicitly acknowledging the reality of individual self ownership, right? 721 00:43:33,584 --> 00:43:37,304 You are using your faculties to try and put forth a point. 722 00:43:38,074 --> 00:43:40,754 You're listening to another person employ their faculties 723 00:43:40,774 --> 00:43:42,424 to put forth their counterpoint. 724 00:43:43,189 --> 00:43:46,679 And the only way that process can unfold is if, indeed, 725 00:43:46,689 --> 00:43:48,339 you both own yourself, right? 726 00:43:48,349 --> 00:43:52,199 Like, you, I own my faculties and I'm generating the points that I'm 727 00:43:52,199 --> 00:43:56,099 putting forth, you're assimilating that information, presumably, and 728 00:43:56,099 --> 00:43:58,189 generating your own counterpoint and putting those things forth. 729 00:43:58,369 --> 00:44:02,639 The only way we can do that is through this implicit acknowledgement of... 730 00:44:03,034 --> 00:44:05,614 Individuals owning themselves, individual self ownership. 731 00:44:06,494 --> 00:44:11,194 And once the tax man says, okay, enough of that, you know, even if he agrees 732 00:44:11,204 --> 00:44:14,684 with you, right, yes, we agree, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, but still 733 00:44:15,414 --> 00:44:22,414 pay me, right, pay the tax, you're actually dis acknowledging, if that's 734 00:44:22,414 --> 00:44:24,786 even a word, individual self ownership. 735 00:44:24,806 --> 00:44:26,736 Cause all of a sudden you're saying, well, that's all good. 736 00:44:26,736 --> 00:44:27,546 You own yourself. 737 00:44:27,546 --> 00:44:30,566 We had this argument, we reached a conclusion, but give me your 738 00:44:30,566 --> 00:44:31,616 stuff or I'm going to hurt you. 739 00:44:32,276 --> 00:44:37,366 Alright, so you're, you're, you're, you're actually, um, contradicting 740 00:44:38,656 --> 00:44:41,486 what argumentation confirms, right? 741 00:44:41,486 --> 00:44:43,526 You're disconfirming what argumentation confirms. 742 00:44:43,526 --> 00:44:45,996 Argumentation is confirming that individuals own themselves. 743 00:44:46,256 --> 00:44:50,306 When you result to coercion and violence, you're disconfirming that reality. 744 00:44:50,856 --> 00:44:52,356 And when you do that... 745 00:44:52,626 --> 00:44:57,006 I mean, you unwind the entire process of human civilization, 746 00:44:57,006 --> 00:44:59,116 rational discourse, etc, etc. 747 00:44:59,636 --> 00:45:02,526 Because if people don't own themselves, and it's just a free for all, then 748 00:45:02,526 --> 00:45:03,886 we're back to might is right, right? 749 00:45:03,886 --> 00:45:04,946 Who's got the biggest stick? 750 00:45:05,656 --> 00:45:07,406 Uh, who can coerce who the hardest? 751 00:45:08,146 --> 00:45:13,731 I think in Atlas Shrugged, There's a line, uh, she said, when force becomes the 752 00:45:13,731 --> 00:45:20,611 standard by which men interact, then the, the pickpocket loses out to the tyrant 753 00:45:20,691 --> 00:45:22,361 or the murderer, something like that. 754 00:45:22,711 --> 00:45:26,201 So the race becomes who is the most violent, right? 755 00:45:26,201 --> 00:45:29,631 Who can coerce and commit as much violence as possible. 756 00:45:29,941 --> 00:45:31,011 Well, guess what that happened? 757 00:45:31,031 --> 00:45:32,971 Guess what that does to the world? 758 00:45:33,351 --> 00:45:37,851 Guys, when you commence that race, civilizations vanish in 759 00:45:37,851 --> 00:45:42,301 a spread of slaughter and ruin, I think, as she wrote as well. 760 00:45:42,431 --> 00:45:45,491 So, it's hard to overstate how important... 761 00:45:46,246 --> 00:45:51,816 Rational discourse and respect for universal respect for individual 762 00:45:51,816 --> 00:45:54,996 life, liberty, and property is to the human enterprise. 763 00:45:55,813 --> 00:45:57,823 Okay, we have some big news. 764 00:45:58,193 --> 00:46:00,433 We have a new lead sponsor, AmberApp. 765 00:46:01,273 --> 00:46:03,873 They're the number one exchange in the Southern Hemisphere. 766 00:46:04,183 --> 00:46:07,083 They're rated for the best customer service around and 767 00:46:07,103 --> 00:46:08,823 their global launch is coming. 768 00:46:09,493 --> 00:46:14,003 But the reason we're partnering with AmberApp is because of the people. 769 00:46:14,533 --> 00:46:17,643 If you haven't listened to our episode with Izzy, CEO of AmberApp, 770 00:46:17,703 --> 00:46:19,503 you really should go check it out. 771 00:46:20,193 --> 00:46:24,083 You'll see why it made perfect sense to partner with Izzy and AmberApp. 772 00:46:24,453 --> 00:46:24,923 That's it. 773 00:46:25,143 --> 00:46:27,723 All I'll say for now, you really have to check it out for yourself. 774 00:46:28,333 --> 00:46:31,373 They have loads of great features coming that we're excited to share 775 00:46:31,373 --> 00:46:34,743 with you when the time comes, but for now, just check out the episode, 776 00:46:34,743 --> 00:46:36,133 check out their website, Ampr. 777 00:46:36,133 --> 00:46:36,413 app. 778 00:46:36,923 --> 00:46:39,809 You can see for yourself, why we're thrilled to bring Ampr. 779 00:46:39,809 --> 00:46:41,749 app on as our lead sponsor and partner. 780 00:46:42,179 --> 00:46:42,919 So go check it out. 781 00:46:43,659 --> 00:46:45,228 Next up WasabiWallet. 782 00:46:45,468 --> 00:46:48,918 The privacy by default, open source, non custodial Bitcoin 783 00:46:48,918 --> 00:46:50,628 wallet with CoinJoin built in. 784 00:46:51,208 --> 00:46:55,198 It's the easy to use, comprehensive, affordable way to make your coins private. 785 00:46:55,763 --> 00:46:58,773 And the best part is, they've been making huge improvements to the app. 786 00:46:59,083 --> 00:47:02,033 They're really focusing on the user experience, adding advanced 787 00:47:02,143 --> 00:47:04,693 features for power users, they just keep getting better. 788 00:47:05,213 --> 00:47:08,693 You send your coins to your Wasabi wallet, and they get combined with loads of 789 00:47:08,693 --> 00:47:12,813 other coins using the Wabi Sabi protocol, so they're private on the other end. 790 00:47:13,353 --> 00:47:16,863 Your tracks are covered so you can work on expanding your Freedom Footprint 791 00:47:17,013 --> 00:47:18,693 without worrying about your privacy. 792 00:47:19,573 --> 00:47:20,483 So, check out wasabiwallet. 793 00:47:20,483 --> 00:47:23,653 io and download Wasabi today. 794 00:47:23,993 --> 00:47:31,083 Yeah, and on that note, I mean what what happens is that when when you 795 00:47:31,083 --> 00:47:37,995 have this class of people that that are able to Coerce and use force 796 00:47:38,035 --> 00:47:40,325 to extract stuff from other people. 797 00:47:40,415 --> 00:47:46,595 Uh, that's why you get clown world because the race becomes to, to, you know, 798 00:47:46,815 --> 00:47:49,235 look good to these people so that you. 799 00:47:49,665 --> 00:47:52,345 They will pay you or they will hurt you less. 800 00:47:52,748 --> 00:47:59,778 and so, so I think, uh, what Bitcoin did, like, was, uh, just turn that 801 00:47:59,778 --> 00:48:03,138 upside down and, and like give property rights back to the people. 802 00:48:03,448 --> 00:48:06,518 So in that sense, I think Bitcoin is one divided by Clown World. 803 00:48:06,518 --> 00:48:09,968 It's the literal inverse of, of Clown World incentives. 804 00:48:10,688 --> 00:48:12,148 And I find that, that, yeah. 805 00:48:12,663 --> 00:48:13,843 That's my next equation. 806 00:48:13,843 --> 00:48:15,673 I need to put that somewhere. 807 00:48:15,863 --> 00:48:17,983 Bitcoin is one divided by Clown World. 808 00:48:18,333 --> 00:48:23,483 Um, so, so on, um, back to Rothbard and Hoppe because I love them so 809 00:48:23,483 --> 00:48:26,923 much, uh, and, and also, uh, Ayn Rand. 810 00:48:26,943 --> 00:48:30,473 But congrats on that beautiful little video clip you did from, 811 00:48:30,633 --> 00:48:33,603 from that section about money in the book, by the way, it was beautiful. 812 00:48:33,883 --> 00:48:36,103 Oh, I take no credit for that. 813 00:48:36,123 --> 00:48:38,353 My editor is a genius. 814 00:48:38,393 --> 00:48:38,733 I just 815 00:48:39,618 --> 00:48:40,528 Yes, he is. 816 00:48:40,623 --> 00:48:42,573 it to him and he makes it beautiful. 817 00:48:43,080 --> 00:48:47,920 okay, okay, okay, anyway, uh, what was, uh, where was I going with this? 818 00:48:47,920 --> 00:48:51,740 Yeah, uh, about ownership, uh, versus possession, because I think 819 00:48:51,740 --> 00:48:57,130 this is, uh, on the same line of, You know, argumentation and mockery, 820 00:48:57,130 --> 00:49:02,860 it's, it's adjacent, like ownership is like a legal, uh, relationship 821 00:49:02,920 --> 00:49:05,480 with, with a, a thing, right? 822 00:49:05,750 --> 00:49:10,440 Because like, you can own a thing, but someone else may possess it, like 823 00:49:10,470 --> 00:49:16,890 the, the gold that is legally belongs to African countries in some central 824 00:49:16,900 --> 00:49:21,330 banks in the West, but the West refuses to give it back or whatever, like, 825 00:49:22,330 --> 00:49:25,853 but Bitcoin, What is owning a bitcoin? 826 00:49:25,903 --> 00:49:28,573 Like, can you even own a bitcoin? 827 00:49:28,653 --> 00:49:29,813 Can you possess it? 828 00:49:29,913 --> 00:49:31,893 Or is it just keeping a secret? 829 00:49:31,893 --> 00:49:36,553 Like, are we on an even deeper level of ownership than, than possession? 830 00:49:36,573 --> 00:49:40,203 Like, is this even, even more robust? 831 00:49:40,468 --> 00:49:44,348 Uh, like, what's, what's your thoughts on that? 832 00:49:44,428 --> 00:49:46,918 Because that's something that's been, you know, tickling my 833 00:49:46,918 --> 00:49:48,058 mind for a long time now. 834 00:49:48,718 --> 00:49:49,028 Yeah. 835 00:49:49,028 --> 00:49:50,818 It's very, very mysterious. 836 00:49:50,858 --> 00:49:54,958 Um, I think it was you, someone that coined. 837 00:49:55,798 --> 00:49:56,768 The whole phrase, right? 838 00:49:56,778 --> 00:50:01,386 Like to with Bitcoin owning and is now knowing, knowing and 839 00:50:01,716 --> 00:50:03,586 Yeah, yeah, knowing is owning. 840 00:50:04,086 --> 00:50:04,456 Yep. 841 00:50:05,701 --> 00:50:08,291 but again, I would credit Kinsella here. 842 00:50:08,771 --> 00:50:10,711 I used to think, Oh yeah, that totally makes sense. 843 00:50:10,711 --> 00:50:16,301 But he's like, well, actually you have to, you've got to, uh, decompose this 844 00:50:16,301 --> 00:50:21,861 terminology a little bit because ownership is actually a legal, a legally, um, 845 00:50:21,861 --> 00:50:25,571 enforceable claim on an asset, right? 846 00:50:25,571 --> 00:50:26,241 On a scarce. 847 00:50:27,261 --> 00:50:31,291 Uh, scarce asset, such that you can exclude others from its use. 848 00:50:32,181 --> 00:50:36,271 you could say ownership is like recourse to the legal apparatus of 849 00:50:36,271 --> 00:50:38,901 coercion to resolve a dispute, right? 850 00:50:38,901 --> 00:50:42,781 If someone steals your car, well, you might not be in possession 851 00:50:42,781 --> 00:50:46,151 of your car after they steal it, but you still own it, right? 852 00:50:46,151 --> 00:50:52,011 You have the title or whatever it may be, and so you can bring to bear force, right? 853 00:50:52,031 --> 00:50:53,871 Legally to get it back, right? 854 00:50:53,881 --> 00:50:55,991 They can pull the guy over and arrest him and... 855 00:50:56,576 --> 00:50:58,276 Take the car and give it back to you. 856 00:50:59,467 --> 00:51:03,667 And that's fundamentally different from possession, which in a strict sense 857 00:51:03,667 --> 00:51:06,407 is just physical custody, effectively. 858 00:51:07,401 --> 00:51:12,151 and so Bitcoin, what can you own Bitcoin? 859 00:51:12,711 --> 00:51:18,341 You know, I, I guess you, it sort of has a foot in both worlds in a 860 00:51:18,341 --> 00:51:22,251 way, because a judge could pass. 861 00:51:23,551 --> 00:51:25,041 A judge could make a judgment, right? 862 00:51:25,041 --> 00:51:28,891 And say, Hey, this Bitcoin belongs, this Bitcoin that's in possession 863 00:51:28,911 --> 00:51:32,731 of Robert belongs to Knut, right? 864 00:51:32,981 --> 00:51:35,131 Knut is the rightful owner of this Bitcoin. 865 00:51:35,161 --> 00:51:41,221 But if I'm in possession of the keys, um, that's, it's hard to enforce that, right? 866 00:51:41,221 --> 00:51:45,871 I can also have all this plausible deniability like, Oh, sorry, judge 867 00:51:45,871 --> 00:51:47,041 had the boating accident, right? 868 00:51:47,041 --> 00:51:48,401 You know, it's, it's all gone now. 869 00:51:49,971 --> 00:51:57,591 So I guess in a strict legal sense, you can own Bitcoin and that a legal 870 00:51:58,891 --> 00:52:05,121 apparatus can tell you, like, who is the rightful owner of a specific private key. 871 00:52:05,959 --> 00:52:09,499 I don't, again, I don't, I'm not saying that this is being done, but, 872 00:52:09,649 --> 00:52:12,869 um, it, it can be done, I guess. 873 00:52:13,309 --> 00:52:20,459 But to possess Bitcoin is something entirely different, right, to actually 874 00:52:20,549 --> 00:52:25,607 have the private key, and even then you don't really have, you don't, you 875 00:52:25,607 --> 00:52:31,567 don't physically custody a piece of material reality, right, you've got an 876 00:52:31,577 --> 00:52:37,467 alphanumeric string, you've just got, uh, information, right, which as you're 877 00:52:37,467 --> 00:52:40,587 saying is like something like keeping a secret, and yeah, it's a great point, 878 00:52:40,597 --> 00:52:45,292 it's not, it's If, if, if possession meant physical custody, then you never 879 00:52:45,292 --> 00:52:47,522 really physically custody Bitcoin. 880 00:52:47,542 --> 00:52:54,932 You're just guarding that secret, which allows you to unlock, the, the ability 881 00:52:54,932 --> 00:52:57,892 to spend from that UTXO set, right? 882 00:52:57,912 --> 00:53:01,612 So it's, it's different somehow. 883 00:53:02,021 --> 00:53:05,511 and I guess in that sense, it's kind of like just guarding a. 884 00:53:08,576 --> 00:53:09,066 Secret. 885 00:53:09,176 --> 00:53:11,236 I, I, yeah, I guess that's the best way to put it. 886 00:53:11,576 --> 00:53:13,086 And so no, can you own it? 887 00:53:13,436 --> 00:53:16,846 Yes, technically, but the ownership is largely unenforceable. 888 00:53:16,846 --> 00:53:17,946 I think in most cases. 889 00:53:18,936 --> 00:53:19,836 Can you possess it? 890 00:53:19,836 --> 00:53:22,686 Not really, because you can't physically possess the thing. 891 00:53:22,686 --> 00:53:24,046 It's just informational. 892 00:53:24,376 --> 00:53:25,746 So what can you do with it? 893 00:53:25,926 --> 00:53:31,186 Uh, you can keep your private key guarded and secret and use it to 894 00:53:31,186 --> 00:53:32,766 the extent that you can do that. 895 00:53:33,318 --> 00:53:35,348 Yeah, because I think we need a whole... 896 00:53:35,488 --> 00:53:42,618 A whole plethora of new laws around this, uh, if, if, or, or no laws at 897 00:53:42,618 --> 00:53:46,948 all, because like the, the, the current legal framework in different countries 898 00:53:46,948 --> 00:53:50,448 have different approaches to it, and they try to enforce like old words, 899 00:53:50,618 --> 00:53:52,928 world stuff onto this new thing. 900 00:53:53,508 --> 00:53:54,908 But, but, but. 901 00:53:55,308 --> 00:54:01,048 Even proving that someone is in possession of a Bitcoin is, is impossible. 902 00:54:01,108 --> 00:54:04,098 Because how do you prove that someone knows something? 903 00:54:04,688 --> 00:54:06,768 Like, uh, you can't. 904 00:54:06,828 --> 00:54:12,518 And, and like, uh, it's kind of vulgar that they, those, these chain anal 905 00:54:12,558 --> 00:54:14,618 companies that, that try to do that. 906 00:54:14,618 --> 00:54:19,758 And they try to set, you know, legal precedents for, uh, for this stuff. 907 00:54:20,058 --> 00:54:26,598 When, when it, you, you, not only can you not prove that someone is in possession 908 00:54:26,598 --> 00:54:32,478 of it, you cannot prove that someone else isn't like you can guess the key. 909 00:54:32,798 --> 00:54:35,958 I mean, it's the, the chances of you guessing the right 910 00:54:35,958 --> 00:54:37,508 key are astronomically small. 911 00:54:37,508 --> 00:54:40,908 And that's why, that's why we trust this thing to, to the extent that we 912 00:54:40,908 --> 00:54:47,039 do, but at the end of the day, there's no real way to prove that someone has. 913 00:54:47,154 --> 00:54:48,604 knowledge about something. 914 00:54:48,904 --> 00:54:52,974 And it's only when you put, when you put this like on a computer, on a 915 00:54:52,984 --> 00:54:57,234 hardware wallet, or, uh, you know, on a steel plate, then you turn it into 916 00:54:57,234 --> 00:55:00,804 a physical thing because then the letters are engraved in that thing. 917 00:55:01,374 --> 00:55:07,004 Uh, and then it becomes physical, but it doesn't have to be physical. 918 00:55:07,004 --> 00:55:11,609 And this is I find this so insanely fascinating because, like, you can think 919 00:55:11,609 --> 00:55:15,919 of all sorts of situations where this, where this becomes problematic, like 920 00:55:15,929 --> 00:55:20,849 if you have, um, if you fly with your 12 words, for instance, and you get 921 00:55:20,849 --> 00:55:24,429 stopped in the security check, what's stopping the security officer from 922 00:55:24,429 --> 00:55:27,469 just, you know, copying those words? 923 00:55:30,314 --> 00:55:36,554 Or, uh, which is a whole new, uh, there's a whole slew of new problems 924 00:55:36,554 --> 00:55:40,914 there that come with, come with this notion of, of, uh, keeping 925 00:55:40,914 --> 00:55:42,434 a secret or not keeping a secret. 926 00:55:42,434 --> 00:55:44,774 And, and, uh, the, the thing. 927 00:55:46,114 --> 00:55:50,954 The thing it does, it invokes responsibility in people, because once 928 00:55:50,954 --> 00:55:55,814 you dive down in this rabbit hole, you realize that you have to keep the 929 00:55:55,814 --> 00:56:02,664 secret, and you have to figure out for yourself what the best way for you of 930 00:56:02,664 --> 00:56:08,664 keeping the secret is, because there's no universal answer to how to keep a secret. 931 00:56:09,414 --> 00:56:15,814 And so, uh, yeah, there's so much to unpack there because now I'm ranting 932 00:56:15,814 --> 00:56:21,344 on here, I know, but if, if it's just keeping a secret, they're a part of you 933 00:56:22,104 --> 00:56:27,684 and that's, so, and how, how big a part of you is up to you because it's opt 934 00:56:27,684 --> 00:56:30,864 in, so you can, you can have a hundred percent of your wealth in Bitcoin, 935 00:56:31,174 --> 00:56:36,124 or you can have 1%, but how much you have in Bitcoin in comparison to how 936 00:56:36,124 --> 00:56:38,174 much you live in the, uh, clown world. 937 00:56:39,100 --> 00:56:43,070 you, you have a tool now where, where you can choose to opt out to 938 00:56:43,070 --> 00:56:47,300 a specific percentage of your being. 939 00:56:47,420 --> 00:56:52,270 Like this, 60% of me can never be coerced into anything. 940 00:56:52,540 --> 00:56:53,950 Like, I can, I can do that. 941 00:56:53,950 --> 00:56:56,140 Literally, I can say, uh, okay. 942 00:56:56,350 --> 00:57:00,940 I, I can put up with some coercion to just to, you know, have a police force and 943 00:57:01,510 --> 00:57:02,980 , you know, a fire brigade and whatnot. 944 00:57:03,430 --> 00:57:07,875 But, uh, I think I'm fine with just paying, uh, 15 percent taxes. 945 00:57:08,685 --> 00:57:09,775 I'll opt out of the rest. 946 00:57:09,785 --> 00:57:10,175 Thank you. 947 00:57:10,395 --> 00:57:11,585 And you can just do that. 948 00:57:12,235 --> 00:57:13,925 And that's true for everyone in the world. 949 00:57:14,760 --> 00:57:19,280 I find it so insanely fascinating and how the question becomes, 950 00:57:19,800 --> 00:57:22,880 how, how far off into the future? 951 00:57:24,500 --> 00:57:27,750 I mean, how long will it take before everyone realizes that 952 00:57:27,750 --> 00:57:29,570 this is, this is already true? 953 00:57:30,344 --> 00:57:32,964 Well, that's a great question. 954 00:57:32,984 --> 00:57:39,304 Um, you know, I think always answering questions about timing is very important. 955 00:57:40,549 --> 00:57:45,339 I'm sorry, very difficult, obviously very important, but very, very difficult to 956 00:57:45,389 --> 00:57:47,429 say when something is going to happen. 957 00:57:48,584 --> 00:57:49,804 Yeah, it's a stupid question. 958 00:57:49,804 --> 00:57:50,104 I know. 959 00:57:50,104 --> 00:57:50,704 I mean, 960 00:57:51,224 --> 00:57:52,234 That's not stupid. 961 00:57:52,314 --> 00:57:53,164 It's very important. 962 00:57:53,234 --> 00:57:53,424 All right. 963 00:57:53,424 --> 00:57:55,914 It's like, well, when would be very useful to know, but I 964 00:57:55,914 --> 00:57:59,614 think it's equally, incredibly difficult to answer that question. 965 00:58:00,334 --> 00:58:05,284 So, uh, a couple of things, just to like things you said there, right? 966 00:58:05,284 --> 00:58:09,684 It's astronomically difficult to guess someone's private key. 967 00:58:10,674 --> 00:58:14,614 Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I think the right term might even be 968 00:58:14,614 --> 00:58:18,034 it's, it's like beyond astronomically. 969 00:58:18,569 --> 00:58:21,149 Small the chances of actually guessing someone's private key. 970 00:58:22,244 --> 00:58:23,974 it's like the more, what is it? 971 00:58:24,004 --> 00:58:27,994 The chances like if you made a guess every second, you would need longer 972 00:58:27,994 --> 00:58:30,024 than the life of the universe, right? 973 00:58:30,054 --> 00:58:31,624 To guess someone's private key. 974 00:58:31,624 --> 00:58:32,394 So it's actually 975 00:58:32,789 --> 00:58:33,489 on average. 976 00:58:34,324 --> 00:58:34,944 small. 977 00:58:35,439 --> 00:58:36,119 Yeah. 978 00:58:37,309 --> 00:58:41,359 Yeah, so, so infinitesimal that we obviously trust it as if it's 979 00:58:41,359 --> 00:58:44,779 not even possible, effectively, to guess someone's private key. 980 00:58:45,522 --> 00:58:50,532 and then the other like aspect I would introduce is it sounds 981 00:58:50,532 --> 00:58:53,692 like, especially people that don't understand Bitcoin, like, oh my 982 00:58:53,692 --> 00:58:55,312 God, that's a lot of responsibility. 983 00:58:55,312 --> 00:58:56,232 That's scary. 984 00:58:56,232 --> 00:58:58,002 I'm going to carry this secret in my head. 985 00:58:58,002 --> 00:59:02,072 And like, what if I get knocked out or if I get amnesia or someone 986 00:59:02,082 --> 00:59:03,502 tortures me to get the key? 987 00:59:03,502 --> 00:59:04,652 You know, all of these things. 988 00:59:05,732 --> 00:59:07,022 It's not a binary, right? 989 00:59:07,022 --> 00:59:07,422 It's not. 990 00:59:07,662 --> 00:59:11,192 You either trust someone else with your private key, or you hold your 991 00:59:11,192 --> 00:59:12,712 private key between your ears. 992 00:59:12,972 --> 00:59:15,812 There's all these other possible custody schemas. 993 00:59:16,642 --> 00:59:21,572 Um, you know, I think multi key or multi sig is obviously very important here. 994 00:59:21,602 --> 00:59:26,622 You can take that secret, chop it into pieces, into mini secrets, if you will, 995 00:59:26,652 --> 00:59:31,292 and distribute that among different people inside of your circle of trust. 996 00:59:32,142 --> 00:59:35,972 And then you need a certain quorum of those mini secrets to unlock. 997 00:59:36,297 --> 00:59:38,217 Spending ability, right? 998 00:59:38,217 --> 00:59:39,727 A 3 of 5, etc. 999 00:59:39,727 --> 00:59:41,617 So there's ways to like de risk it. 1000 00:59:42,229 --> 00:59:46,669 you know, even take, even ratcheting down the responsibility to some degree that 1001 00:59:46,669 --> 00:59:50,939 you'd still have a lot of responsibility to keep up with 1 of 5, but if you 1002 00:59:50,939 --> 00:59:52,679 lose it, it's not the end of the world. 1003 00:59:52,699 --> 00:59:56,529 Whereas if it's a 1 of 1, well, it is the end of that world, at 1004 00:59:56,529 --> 00:59:58,339 least if you lose your private key. 1005 00:59:59,035 --> 01:00:01,075 And also that gives you some resistance against just the 1006 01:00:01,075 --> 01:00:03,445 whole, against coercion, right? 1007 01:00:03,445 --> 01:00:07,405 Against 5 wrenches or the guy stopping you in the airport, you know, trying to 1008 01:00:07,415 --> 01:00:09,965 copy your, your seed phrase or whatever. 1009 01:00:10,485 --> 01:00:13,445 You're not subject to a single point of failure. 1010 01:00:14,185 --> 01:00:16,735 So I always think that's a very important point when we talk about 1011 01:00:16,745 --> 01:00:21,825 these topics because people get scared when they hear, What do you mean? 1012 01:00:22,285 --> 01:00:24,685 I have to memorize my whole life's worth and if I forget 1013 01:00:24,685 --> 01:00:27,515 or mess up, I'm, it's over? 1014 01:00:27,555 --> 01:00:29,965 And so, important. 1015 01:00:30,155 --> 01:00:33,275 can have all, all sorts of solutions at the same time. 1016 01:00:33,275 --> 01:00:37,845 You can have a multi sig, you can have a single sig hardware wallet and a custodial 1017 01:00:37,845 --> 01:00:42,235 phone wallet for different, different solutions for different purposes, right? 1018 01:00:42,765 --> 01:00:46,695 So, uh, yeah, and I, I think that we need to educate people more 1019 01:00:46,695 --> 01:00:48,775 about that, that aspect of it, that. 1020 01:00:49,385 --> 01:00:54,565 Bitcoin can be extremely simple to use, but then they're somewhat at 1021 01:00:54,565 --> 01:01:02,245 risk, and they can be hard, it can be hard to set up a really, you know, 1022 01:01:02,835 --> 01:01:09,425 theft proof solution, but On the other hand, they're, they're probably, they 1023 01:01:09,425 --> 01:01:11,225 will probably there be there forever. 1024 01:01:12,033 --> 01:01:16,063 Yeah, so it's like, you know, you put a few dollars in your pocket to go out 1025 01:01:16,063 --> 01:01:20,593 at night, you know, that might be your equivalent to your hot wallet, right? 1026 01:01:20,603 --> 01:01:23,093 You might have a few more, if you're traveling, you might have 1027 01:01:23,093 --> 01:01:27,093 a few more dollars hidden inside your suitcase somewhere, right? 1028 01:01:27,093 --> 01:01:30,673 This is kind of like your, uh, little account you'll draw from as you're 1029 01:01:30,673 --> 01:01:34,173 traveling, you'll swap US dollars for local currency or whatever it may be, 1030 01:01:34,773 --> 01:01:39,928 that's kind of like, uh, Maybe like a non custodial wallet, something like that. 1031 01:01:40,718 --> 01:01:45,378 And then, you know, you're the vast majority of your wealth for most 1032 01:01:45,428 --> 01:01:50,368 people, anyone that has, uh, any amount of wealth, you know, like well over 1033 01:01:50,368 --> 01:01:56,208 90%, you'd probably keep in a deep cold storage multi sig device, right? 1034 01:01:56,208 --> 01:02:01,328 And that would be equivalent to, I don't know, uh, A bank account for most people, 1035 01:02:01,328 --> 01:02:04,508 which is not actually a good solution because there's counterparty risk there, 1036 01:02:05,168 --> 01:02:09,088 uh, might be equivalent to gold in a vault or gold buried in the ground for others. 1037 01:02:10,078 --> 01:02:14,208 But yeah, it's just to reinforce your point, it, it, you don't 1038 01:02:14,208 --> 01:02:15,628 need one solution, right? 1039 01:02:15,888 --> 01:02:18,888 You can have different solutions for different use cases and you can 1040 01:02:19,548 --> 01:02:21,888 rebalance and reallocate as needed. 1041 01:02:22,816 --> 01:02:24,636 your earlier question, though, like when... 1042 01:02:25,841 --> 01:02:31,551 When the people realize this, um, you've probably heard me say this 1043 01:02:31,561 --> 01:02:35,691 before, cause I say it all the time, but I just don't think most people move 1044 01:02:35,721 --> 01:02:39,121 until they feel sufficient pain, right? 1045 01:02:40,541 --> 01:02:44,941 There's not a lot of nerds in the world that want to sit here and spend all 1046 01:02:44,941 --> 01:02:50,001 this time going down the Bitcoin rabbit hole that are curious enough, that are 1047 01:02:50,021 --> 01:02:56,270 intelligent enough, patient enough, To, to really try and learn all these lessons, 1048 01:02:56,270 --> 01:03:00,000 right, or try to understand computer science and economics and incentives 1049 01:03:00,000 --> 01:03:06,330 and, you know, all the different, uh, disciplines that Bitcoin touches or that 1050 01:03:06,330 --> 01:03:10,210 you touch going down the Bitcoin rabbit hole, I don't think a lot of people have 1051 01:03:10,250 --> 01:03:12,655 the patience or wherewithal to pursue. 1052 01:03:12,995 --> 01:03:17,785 Go into that to, to get the Bitcoin, Bitcoin, orange pill epiphany. 1053 01:03:18,855 --> 01:03:26,125 But what most people do have is a tacit experience of pain, right? 1054 01:03:26,125 --> 01:03:30,225 Like if their bank account is frozen or they can't get their capital out 1055 01:03:30,225 --> 01:03:36,515 of a country or their currency is hyperinflating or they're a rich guy and. 1056 01:03:37,110 --> 01:03:41,180 You know, living in Russia and Putin's going to seize their company or seize 1057 01:03:41,180 --> 01:03:46,550 their yacht or otherwise redistribute their wealth forcibly, well, that starts 1058 01:03:46,600 --> 01:03:51,130 to really give people the light bulb moments like, Oh shit, okay, my stuff 1059 01:03:51,140 --> 01:03:55,170 is getting taken or my currency is failing or whatever situation I'm being 1060 01:03:55,170 --> 01:03:58,940 subjected to under this duress, right? 1061 01:03:58,940 --> 01:04:03,980 This actual pain, painful experience I'm living through kind of forces people 1062 01:04:03,980 --> 01:04:05,680 to start evaluating their options. 1063 01:04:05,750 --> 01:04:07,170 And as we've. 1064 01:04:07,765 --> 01:04:15,275 Discussed and laid out, there seems to be only really one viable option for an asset 1065 01:04:15,315 --> 01:04:20,685 that cannot be forcibly taken from you, um, assuming you've custody it properly. 1066 01:04:20,695 --> 01:04:24,615 So, I think, unfortunately, we have to go through more pain. 1067 01:04:24,625 --> 01:04:28,355 We have to go through more hyperinflations, more forced 1068 01:04:28,365 --> 01:04:34,554 asset seizures, more statism, before we see Bitcoin really 1069 01:04:34,554 --> 01:04:36,394 start to shine in the eyes of. 1070 01:04:37,184 --> 01:04:37,874 the majority 1071 01:04:38,426 --> 01:04:42,056 just to play the devil's advocate here for a while, um, if I were to make a 1072 01:04:42,056 --> 01:04:46,776 counter argument to that, that would be places like Lebanon or Argentina 1073 01:04:46,776 --> 01:04:51,156 or Zimbabwe, where Venezuela, where hyperinflation is a real thing. 1074 01:04:51,696 --> 01:04:59,451 I mean, Bitcoin adoption exists there, but it's not big, like, uh, so, and 1075 01:04:59,451 --> 01:05:03,521 that might be because these countries started to hyperinflate way before 1076 01:05:03,801 --> 01:05:05,581 people knew about Bitcoin at all. 1077 01:05:06,479 --> 01:05:13,299 Can we, can we trust that pain will turn people into hyperbitcoinization mode? 1078 01:05:13,379 --> 01:05:17,989 Like it's, it's hard to formulate this question, but 1079 01:05:18,129 --> 01:05:19,809 just curious about your thoughts. 1080 01:05:20,093 --> 01:05:24,733 Well, I mean, the other thing is we have to keep in mind where we are in 1081 01:05:24,733 --> 01:05:28,203 Bitcoin's monetization process, right? 1082 01:05:28,253 --> 01:05:28,483 Like 1083 01:05:29,795 --> 01:05:33,325 Bitcoin will not be purchasing power stable in the short 1084 01:05:33,325 --> 01:05:35,935 run for a long time, right? 1085 01:05:35,935 --> 01:05:39,925 It's just, just too small of a market cap at this point. 1086 01:05:40,535 --> 01:05:44,955 Maybe when it's in the tens of trillions of dollars in market cap, it's, it's short 1087 01:05:44,955 --> 01:05:47,405 term purchasing power will be more stable. 1088 01:05:48,115 --> 01:05:49,605 And that really tends to be what. 1089 01:05:49,900 --> 01:05:53,890 People are looking for, particularly in hyperinflations, right, they want 1090 01:05:53,890 --> 01:05:58,190 to get out of the purchasing power unstable currency, the currency that's 1091 01:05:58,330 --> 01:06:01,820 plummeting in purchasing power day over day, week over week, and they 1092 01:06:01,820 --> 01:06:02,585 want to get into a week over week. 1093 01:06:02,915 --> 01:06:07,935 Short term purchasing power stable currency that tends to be the U. 1094 01:06:07,935 --> 01:06:08,065 S. 1095 01:06:08,065 --> 01:06:08,835 dollar, right? 1096 01:06:08,835 --> 01:06:11,555 When Zimbabwe hyperinflates, people want to get into dollars. 1097 01:06:12,005 --> 01:06:17,455 So the pain, I'm not saying it's like you feel the pain once and then all of 1098 01:06:17,455 --> 01:06:20,285 a sudden you're like orange pilled and you're all in on Bitcoin, but if you 1099 01:06:20,285 --> 01:06:25,215 could imagine going further into the future, sure, currencies that hyperinflate 1100 01:06:25,215 --> 01:06:27,275 today, maybe they want to dollarize. 1101 01:06:28,135 --> 01:06:31,535 Um, and I would expect this to, this pattern to continue to play out, 1102 01:06:31,535 --> 01:06:36,815 actually, as weaker currencies fail, you would see more of these economies or 1103 01:06:36,815 --> 01:06:40,295 individuals in those economies looking to move their savings into dollars, 1104 01:06:41,035 --> 01:06:46,125 um, just, again, as a means of gaining short term purchasing power stability. 1105 01:06:46,965 --> 01:06:48,105 But what happens when the U. 1106 01:06:48,105 --> 01:06:48,375 S. 1107 01:06:48,375 --> 01:06:52,515 dollar, which is also being counterfeited rampantly, you know, I 1108 01:06:52,545 --> 01:06:54,345 think we've increased the supply of U. 1109 01:06:54,345 --> 01:06:54,455 S. 1110 01:06:54,455 --> 01:06:54,855 dollars. 1111 01:06:55,275 --> 01:07:00,305 To the tune of 50 percent or more in the past three years, I, I, the 1112 01:07:00,305 --> 01:07:03,825 number 50 to 60%, I think of the numbers that I've heard over the past 1113 01:07:03,930 --> 01:07:10,840 The best, the best number I've seen there is in 2021, 21 million 1114 01:07:11,210 --> 01:07:12,980 were printed per Bitcoin mined. 1115 01:07:13,965 --> 01:07:19,695 So 7 trillion, like, uh, divided by the number of bitcoins printed. 1116 01:07:19,735 --> 01:07:20,105 Right. 1117 01:07:20,175 --> 01:07:22,075 And so that was in one year. 1118 01:07:22,355 --> 01:07:23,605 And that was when the U. 1119 01:07:23,605 --> 01:07:23,845 S. 1120 01:07:25,230 --> 01:07:30,630 What M2 is probably in the neighborhood of, I don't know, 15 to 18, 20 1121 01:07:31,460 --> 01:07:32,770 trillion, something like that. 1122 01:07:32,770 --> 01:07:34,530 I'm actually not sure, but 1123 01:07:35,125 --> 01:07:36,815 7 trillion were printed. 1124 01:07:36,845 --> 01:07:41,005 I mean, it's kind of hard to define because M2 and M1, they're 1125 01:07:41,005 --> 01:07:43,085 sort of diffuse terms, right? 1126 01:07:43,245 --> 01:07:45,795 It's not the money in circulation, really. 1127 01:07:46,295 --> 01:07:48,695 So it's kind of hard to describe it. 1128 01:07:49,116 --> 01:07:55,326 what I wanted to get at is, is that it's a, call it a 50 percent increase 1129 01:07:55,376 --> 01:07:57,811 in the money supply, whatever your. 1130 01:07:58,011 --> 01:08:01,251 Gauge you're using and someone can check my math, but I think roughly over the 1131 01:08:01,251 --> 01:08:02,771 past three years, we've expanded U. 1132 01:08:02,771 --> 01:08:02,891 S. 1133 01:08:02,891 --> 01:08:06,471 dollar supply 50%, 5 0 or more. 1134 01:08:07,341 --> 01:08:12,011 So, all these other countries that are dollarizing and um, you know, 1135 01:08:12,011 --> 01:08:14,371 people would say, oh, this bullish dollar, this dollar is going to 1136 01:08:14,371 --> 01:08:15,631 last forever, blah, blah, blah. 1137 01:08:15,631 --> 01:08:16,321 It's like, okay. 1138 01:08:16,861 --> 01:08:17,851 Well, what is the U. 1139 01:08:17,851 --> 01:08:17,961 S. 1140 01:08:17,961 --> 01:08:18,401 dollar? 1141 01:08:19,121 --> 01:08:19,291 U. 1142 01:08:19,291 --> 01:08:19,411 S. 1143 01:08:19,411 --> 01:08:22,181 dollar is just the best of the worst, right? 1144 01:08:22,181 --> 01:08:24,521 It's just another fiat currency that weaker fiat 1145 01:08:24,741 --> 01:08:26,311 currencies are collapsing into. 1146 01:08:27,001 --> 01:08:31,061 So what happens, and when you study the nature of fiat currencies, I think 1147 01:08:31,061 --> 01:08:35,381 you'll quickly determine that they really only head one direction, right? 1148 01:08:36,041 --> 01:08:38,801 There are massive incentives to counterfeit them into 1149 01:08:38,861 --> 01:08:40,211 worthlessness over time. 1150 01:08:40,871 --> 01:08:43,021 So the big question becomes what happens when... 1151 01:08:44,196 --> 01:08:46,296 Major currencies or even the U. 1152 01:08:46,296 --> 01:08:46,476 S. 1153 01:08:46,476 --> 01:08:48,346 dollar start to hyperinflate. 1154 01:08:48,726 --> 01:08:50,136 Where do people run then? 1155 01:08:50,146 --> 01:08:51,666 You can't dollarize out of a U. 1156 01:08:51,666 --> 01:08:51,836 S. 1157 01:08:51,856 --> 01:08:54,726 dollar denominated hyperinflation. 1158 01:08:55,166 --> 01:08:56,246 So what do you do then? 1159 01:08:57,051 --> 01:09:00,981 that's where I think the pain, the real pain that's going to wake 1160 01:09:00,981 --> 01:09:03,401 people up uh, is going to come. 1161 01:09:03,401 --> 01:09:09,381 And a lot of people will say, You know, uh, Santiago capital, Brett Johnson. 1162 01:09:10,321 --> 01:09:12,261 He will just tell you this never going to happen. 1163 01:09:12,261 --> 01:09:14,061 The U S dollar is going to last forever. 1164 01:09:14,071 --> 01:09:16,591 We're just such a bad ass imperialist country. 1165 01:09:16,591 --> 01:09:20,371 There's no way we'll ever let the dollar fall and blah, blah, blah. 1166 01:09:21,061 --> 01:09:22,791 Um, I just don't buy it. 1167 01:09:23,011 --> 01:09:24,131 I just simply don't buy it. 1168 01:09:24,131 --> 01:09:25,861 I think human beings follow incentives. 1169 01:09:26,191 --> 01:09:31,391 The incentives of having a U S dollar fiat currency as a central 1170 01:09:31,401 --> 01:09:35,281 bank is to just keep producing it and using it to extract wealth. 1171 01:09:36,151 --> 01:09:40,391 Um, that ultimately leads to the debasement of the currency and 1172 01:09:40,391 --> 01:09:43,891 eventually hyper debasement or hyper inflation of the currency. 1173 01:09:44,711 --> 01:09:48,801 And I think there's also major incentives for foreign counterparties 1174 01:09:48,841 --> 01:09:50,461 to dump dollars over time. 1175 01:09:50,501 --> 01:09:53,631 And we already see the BRICS countries, right? 1176 01:09:53,781 --> 01:09:57,270 Uh, Brazil, Russia, India, China, South Africa. 1177 01:09:57,496 --> 01:10:01,826 talking about launching a currency that's orthogonal to the U S dollar, right. 1178 01:10:01,826 --> 01:10:04,606 And, and commodity based and all of these things. 1179 01:10:04,976 --> 01:10:10,206 So we've already moved from this kind of unipolar dollar world to much more of 1180 01:10:10,206 --> 01:10:13,276 a multipolar world with especially the. 1181 01:10:13,566 --> 01:10:18,876 The beginning of the Russia Ukraine conflict, I would expect that to continue. 1182 01:10:19,516 --> 01:10:22,416 All of that results in diminishing demand for the U. 1183 01:10:22,416 --> 01:10:22,546 S. 1184 01:10:22,546 --> 01:10:25,166 dollar, which is going to mean more dollar printing. 1185 01:10:25,756 --> 01:10:28,916 and I, you know, I think we see U. 1186 01:10:28,916 --> 01:10:29,026 S. 1187 01:10:29,026 --> 01:10:30,096 dollar hyperinflation. 1188 01:10:30,146 --> 01:10:34,836 Now, again, timing, very scary to talk about here, but I already put out a 1189 01:10:34,836 --> 01:10:36,946 public prediction, so I'll stick with it. 1190 01:10:37,636 --> 01:10:42,136 I think by the year 2035, we see the US dollar going into hyperinflation. 1191 01:10:43,456 --> 01:10:46,606 And so the big question for me is like, what then? 1192 01:10:46,786 --> 01:10:50,406 What, what do you dollarize into at that point, right? 1193 01:10:50,406 --> 01:10:54,336 There's, there's no, you've, you've used up all the options in 1194 01:10:54,336 --> 01:10:55,796 the fiat currency stack, right? 1195 01:10:55,796 --> 01:11:00,246 You've been scurrying up the liquidity hierarchy to the most liquid fiat currency 1196 01:11:00,246 --> 01:11:02,636 to escape your local hyperinflation. 1197 01:11:02,636 --> 01:11:06,736 Well, what happens when the point of escape becomes the point of failure? 1198 01:11:07,626 --> 01:11:08,696 Where do people go then? 1199 01:11:10,376 --> 01:11:12,816 Well, take the orange pill now or be forced to take the 1200 01:11:12,816 --> 01:11:14,346 orange suppository later. 1201 01:11:14,506 --> 01:11:14,706 That's 1202 01:11:15,336 --> 01:11:15,896 That's right. 1203 01:11:15,976 --> 01:11:19,656 Yeah, you could take the orange pill orally now, or it'll be forced 1204 01:11:19,656 --> 01:11:22,026 as a suppository later, perhaps. 1205 01:11:22,096 --> 01:11:22,836 exactly. 1206 01:11:23,041 --> 01:11:26,461 The show is also sponsored by, Orange Pill app, the Bitcoin social layer 1207 01:11:26,481 --> 01:11:29,971 app for iOS and Android where you can stack friends who stack sats. 1208 01:11:30,601 --> 01:11:33,481 You can connect with your favorite Bitcoiners on the app, make local 1209 01:11:33,481 --> 01:11:36,481 connections, and even connect with Bitcoiners around the world. 1210 01:11:37,011 --> 01:11:39,041 And a big feature on OrangePill app is events. 1211 01:11:39,571 --> 01:11:42,961 You can see what's going on in your area and connect with Bitcoiners around you. 1212 01:11:43,441 --> 01:11:45,861 I've been to multiple OrangePill app events and they brought 1213 01:11:45,861 --> 01:11:47,761 Bitcoiners together from all over. 1214 01:11:48,381 --> 01:11:51,381 The best part is you know it's high signal, there's no spam on OrangePill 1215 01:11:51,801 --> 01:11:53,441 app because everyone pays to be there. 1216 01:11:53,511 --> 01:11:54,931 It's just 3 a month. 1217 01:11:55,411 --> 01:11:58,411 So download OrangePill app on Apple or Android and get connected 1218 01:11:58,411 --> 01:11:59,871 to the Bitcoin social layer. 1219 01:12:00,091 --> 01:12:01,691 Next up, The Bitcoin Way. 1220 01:12:02,221 --> 01:12:05,531 Their mission is to onboard, educate, and remove barriers to 1221 01:12:05,531 --> 01:12:07,141 taking self custody of your bitcoin. 1222 01:12:07,691 --> 01:12:12,001 They cover everything from cold wallets to nodes, no KYC bitcoin purchases, 1223 01:12:12,051 --> 01:12:14,481 inheritance planning, payments, and more. 1224 01:12:15,011 --> 01:12:17,821 Whether you're new to bitcoin or you're an experienced bitcoiner looking to 1225 01:12:17,831 --> 01:12:21,701 expand your freedom footprint, Or you know someone who this sounds perfect for? 1226 01:12:22,061 --> 01:12:23,981 The Bitcoin Way has something for you. 1227 01:12:24,621 --> 01:12:28,141 They have a skilled team, well versed in the Bitcoin space, and their goal is to 1228 01:12:28,141 --> 01:12:32,031 make all the complexities of Bitcoin as straightforward as possible for everyone. 1229 01:12:32,591 --> 01:12:35,091 And the best part is you can get started with a free 30 1230 01:12:35,091 --> 01:12:36,271 minute call with their team. 1231 01:12:36,791 --> 01:12:38,331 Go to thebitcoinway. 1232 01:12:38,351 --> 01:12:40,561 com slash contact for more info. 1233 01:12:41,162 --> 01:12:43,062 Our newest sponsor is Geyser. 1234 01:12:43,392 --> 01:12:46,282 They are the portal to the creator economy on Bitcoin. 1235 01:12:46,982 --> 01:12:50,702 On Geyser, creators can monetize their work through their communities 1236 01:12:50,732 --> 01:12:52,352 in a social and engaging way. 1237 01:12:52,732 --> 01:12:55,522 And supporters can send sats to their favorite projects. 1238 01:12:55,969 --> 01:12:59,269 Geyser has also recently integrated with Zapps and Podcasting 2. 1239 01:12:59,269 --> 01:12:59,729 0. 1240 01:13:00,079 --> 01:13:03,629 So every Zapp sent to a Geyser address shows up on the Geyser page. 1241 01:13:04,389 --> 01:13:05,849 We have a Geyser fund ourselves. 1242 01:13:05,859 --> 01:13:08,019 It's the best way to support our show directly with Bitcoin. 1243 01:13:09,029 --> 01:13:12,889 So whether you're a creator or a supporter, check out geyser at geyser. 1244 01:13:12,889 --> 01:13:13,789 fund today. 1245 01:13:14,137 --> 01:13:16,997 okay, let's, let's, let's just a weird thought. 1246 01:13:17,097 --> 01:13:21,967 Uh, I love to try to extrapolate the thought vectors as far off into 1247 01:13:21,967 --> 01:13:23,867 the future as possible as you know. 1248 01:13:23,897 --> 01:13:28,917 So, so we talked a bit about volatility and. 1249 01:13:29,692 --> 01:13:33,032 In your mind, does Bitcoin ever become stable? 1250 01:13:33,142 --> 01:13:38,552 Because imagine a hyperbitcoinized world where everything is priced in Bitcoin 1251 01:13:38,552 --> 01:13:40,292 and all the fiat currencies have died. 1252 01:13:41,012 --> 01:13:45,012 And you have, I mean, we're, us three dorks here, we're like the 1253 01:13:45,012 --> 01:13:46,352 first generation of Bitcoiners. 1254 01:13:47,512 --> 01:13:52,452 And people like us are going to lose a lot of Bitcoin along the way. 1255 01:13:52,472 --> 01:13:54,832 We're not going to be able to like... 1256 01:13:56,102 --> 01:14:01,402 Store them properly and so, so, so I think people are underestimating the SAT squeeze 1257 01:14:01,432 --> 01:14:06,432 because of just people losing their keys here in their boating accidents and so on. 1258 01:14:07,292 --> 01:14:12,602 So, so if that is the case and you get into this global sound money free 1259 01:14:12,602 --> 01:14:16,542 market with increased productivity everywhere and purchasing power go 1260 01:14:16,542 --> 01:14:23,372 up, like there's a point where like technology is adopted in an S curve, but. 1261 01:14:23,992 --> 01:14:27,862 I don't really ever see the top of this in necessarily in Bitcoin, 1262 01:14:27,872 --> 01:14:31,452 because what would be the top like when all the people are on board? 1263 01:14:31,522 --> 01:14:32,922 Well, there's still more money. 1264 01:14:33,312 --> 01:14:36,902 Well, when all the money is on board, well, there's still more productivity. 1265 01:14:37,312 --> 01:14:38,522 Like, does it ever end? 1266 01:14:38,552 --> 01:14:44,682 And combine that with more and more bitcoins lost, like, This thing is, you 1267 01:14:44,682 --> 01:14:50,972 know, it's the forever Laura thing, but the, the, the, the weirdness of the, the 1268 01:14:50,972 --> 01:14:53,702 rate of forever Laura ness, if you will. 1269 01:14:54,532 --> 01:14:56,512 Well, what, what are your thoughts on that? 1270 01:14:57,014 --> 01:14:58,234 Oh, man, this is great. 1271 01:14:58,734 --> 01:15:03,204 This is the infinity divided by 21 million, right? 1272 01:15:03,284 --> 01:15:05,114 It's like, where, where's the top? 1273 01:15:05,284 --> 01:15:07,314 Well, we just call it infinity, right? 1274 01:15:08,144 --> 01:15:08,744 So... 1275 01:15:09,444 --> 01:15:15,064 It's very interesting to me because what you have, you know, assuming the Bitcoin 1276 01:15:15,074 --> 01:15:23,314 thesis plays out is you have a guaranteed fraction, like to whatever degree money 1277 01:15:23,314 --> 01:15:30,504 is being demanded as, uh, to be held as savings, as cash balances, right? 1278 01:15:30,504 --> 01:15:36,044 It's going to be a reflection of the capital that's 1279 01:15:36,044 --> 01:15:37,734 available in the marketplace. 1280 01:15:38,982 --> 01:15:43,092 That capital is a reflection of how productive we actually are. 1281 01:15:43,982 --> 01:15:49,082 And, um, I actually just listened this morning to, uh, Guy Swan 1282 01:15:49,082 --> 01:15:52,922 read Alan Farrington's piece on the killer app of Bitcoin being. 1283 01:15:53,287 --> 01:15:55,287 It properly pricing capital. 1284 01:15:56,077 --> 01:15:57,757 And I thought that was really interesting. 1285 01:15:58,397 --> 01:16:02,747 Um, so Bitcoin is going to improve productivity a number of ways. 1286 01:16:02,757 --> 01:16:08,767 One, and this would be Hoppe's point in a theory of socialism and capitalism. 1287 01:16:09,947 --> 01:16:15,847 The degree to which private property is made less viable, which is to 1288 01:16:15,847 --> 01:16:20,557 say that theft is more expensive, difficult, or risky is the same degree 1289 01:16:20,557 --> 01:16:25,477 to which we are incentivizing people to produce rather than steal, right? 1290 01:16:25,487 --> 01:16:25,897 It's like. 1291 01:16:26,232 --> 01:16:30,442 There's two roads to wealth acquisition, I can make it or I can take it, 1292 01:16:31,142 --> 01:16:34,472 and if taking is very difficult, if stealing is very difficult, well 1293 01:16:34,472 --> 01:16:37,902 then I'm left with only the other option, which is making, right? 1294 01:16:38,602 --> 01:16:42,502 Creating things of value, trading with other people, consensually, etc. 1295 01:16:42,972 --> 01:16:45,912 We've already talked about how Bitcoin sort of tilts the scales 1296 01:16:45,912 --> 01:16:50,582 away from making and towards, away from taking and towards making, and 1297 01:16:50,582 --> 01:16:52,902 that because it's expensive to steal. 1298 01:16:53,752 --> 01:16:56,492 And if you start stealing people's stuff, right, if you start stealing my 1299 01:16:56,492 --> 01:16:59,352 yachts and houses and whatever, well then maybe I'll just start selling 1300 01:16:59,352 --> 01:17:03,092 everything else and putting it into Bitcoin and moving elsewhere where 1301 01:17:03,102 --> 01:17:06,512 the government doesn't steal my stuff or have stronger property rights. 1302 01:17:07,012 --> 01:17:12,442 So you get this self organizing dynamic in the world where people are going to be... 1303 01:17:12,652 --> 01:17:17,802 More likely to engage in consensual trade, long term trading relationships, 1304 01:17:18,492 --> 01:17:21,102 making in general, and less so in taking. 1305 01:17:22,652 --> 01:17:28,892 Now, Alan's point in his paper was interesting too, that we have a really 1306 01:17:28,892 --> 01:17:34,242 hard time pricing capital appropriately under the current fiat paradigm. 1307 01:17:34,512 --> 01:17:38,252 Um, and when you start to price... 1308 01:17:38,627 --> 01:17:42,517 Capital appropriately, you actually increase productivity that people 1309 01:17:42,517 --> 01:17:47,217 are actually able to figure out, you know, through a, a sound and 1310 01:17:47,217 --> 01:17:52,867 reliable price signal or profit signal, which uses of capital are 1311 01:17:52,867 --> 01:17:55,537 satisfying the most human wants, right? 1312 01:17:55,637 --> 01:18:00,147 You get a very clear signal about where that capital needs to go, whereas 1313 01:18:00,147 --> 01:18:05,467 in a fiat paradigm, you have more of this short termism, um, Just trying 1314 01:18:05,467 --> 01:18:08,907 to generate the quarterly profit, you know, long term results be damned. 1315 01:18:09,607 --> 01:18:13,387 So I think Bitcoin, you know, again, I only listened to this once today and I 1316 01:18:13,387 --> 01:18:19,907 can't expand upon it super intelligently, but to the extent that Bitcoin allows 1317 01:18:19,947 --> 01:18:24,647 the proper pricing of capital, I think it also increases human productivity. 1318 01:18:25,297 --> 01:18:30,587 And so all these expansions that Bitcoin's providing via its incentive system, To 1319 01:18:30,587 --> 01:18:35,377 human productivity are, interestingly enough, also accretive to the purchasing 1320 01:18:35,377 --> 01:18:38,467 power that Bitcoin represents over time. 1321 01:18:38,987 --> 01:18:43,687 So it's like, uh, you know, the, the Ouroboros, the snake eating its own tail. 1322 01:18:44,137 --> 01:18:45,637 This is like the inverse of that, right? 1323 01:18:45,637 --> 01:18:47,977 It's like the snake feeding its own mouth or something. 1324 01:18:47,977 --> 01:18:50,367 You know, Bitcoin's actually creating more human productivity 1325 01:18:50,367 --> 01:18:51,367 through these incentives. 1326 01:18:51,862 --> 01:18:55,582 And then just fattening the snake and the purchasing power that Bitcoin itself 1327 01:18:55,582 --> 01:18:57,552 is a reflection of as it monetizes. 1328 01:18:58,422 --> 01:19:00,102 So what is the top of that? 1329 01:19:00,102 --> 01:19:02,172 I mean, how can any of us possibly know? 1330 01:19:02,192 --> 01:19:05,922 It's like asking what is the pinnacle of human development, right? 1331 01:19:05,922 --> 01:19:08,342 What is, what's the final stage of human evolution? 1332 01:19:08,342 --> 01:19:09,452 How far are we going to get? 1333 01:19:09,472 --> 01:19:10,672 Are we going to the stars? 1334 01:19:10,672 --> 01:19:11,952 Are we going to other dimensions? 1335 01:19:12,747 --> 01:19:14,677 Where does human ingenuity hit a ceiling? 1336 01:19:14,747 --> 01:19:16,807 You know, it's like the equivalent question. 1337 01:19:16,907 --> 01:19:21,757 So I, I really have no, no clue, but it is certainly fun to think about. 1338 01:19:21,757 --> 01:19:26,137 And if you, and if you frame it that way, it's like, okay, to hold, 1339 01:19:26,147 --> 01:19:27,997 this is why Bitcoin is legacy. 1340 01:19:28,447 --> 01:19:29,677 I don't want to say it's wealth, right? 1341 01:19:29,677 --> 01:19:32,677 Money is not wealth necessarily, but it's, it's legacy. 1342 01:19:33,162 --> 01:19:41,612 Purchasing power preservation, because you hold a, a basically a claim on all 1343 01:19:41,622 --> 01:19:47,002 the successful entrepreneurial enterprises that have occurred and will ever occur 1344 01:19:47,412 --> 01:19:49,352 in human history for the rest of time. 1345 01:19:50,812 --> 01:19:54,887 And you can own, you know, one, one 21 millionth of that, or 10 21 1346 01:19:54,887 --> 01:19:58,152 millionths of that, or 121 millionths of that, whatever fraction you want. 1347 01:19:58,192 --> 01:20:00,782 And to your earlier point, obviously the. 1348 01:20:02,157 --> 01:20:04,297 The denominator is decreasing, right? 1349 01:20:04,297 --> 01:20:05,347 It's not 21 million. 1350 01:20:05,367 --> 01:20:06,657 What, how many coins are there really? 1351 01:20:06,657 --> 01:20:08,287 17, 15, whatever. 1352 01:20:08,937 --> 01:20:14,827 Um, so that's very, like, it's a very powerful framing for just how 1353 01:20:14,837 --> 01:20:17,457 legacy altering Bitcoin can be. 1354 01:20:18,852 --> 01:20:21,092 Everything there is and everything there ever will be 1355 01:20:21,092 --> 01:20:23,407 divided by That was, well, well, 1356 01:20:23,867 --> 01:20:24,767 At most, 21 1357 01:20:24,807 --> 01:20:25,547 21 million. 1358 01:20:27,197 --> 01:20:27,577 Yeah. 1359 01:20:28,248 --> 01:20:31,238 Rob, I absolutely love the conversations we have. 1360 01:20:31,268 --> 01:20:35,028 And I, I, uh, sincerely hope that we get to do more of them, uh, 1361 01:20:35,498 --> 01:20:37,378 preferably in person, but also online. 1362 01:20:37,378 --> 01:20:40,108 I mean, we just need to keep this conversation going. 1363 01:20:40,108 --> 01:20:42,018 I think that's, that's the way forward. 1364 01:20:42,478 --> 01:20:44,358 So thanks very much for coming on. 1365 01:20:44,388 --> 01:20:48,398 Um, Luke, do you have any final questions for Rob before we round this out? 1366 01:20:49,338 --> 01:20:55,198 Uh, well, I, yeah, I was just going to say that, uh, the last, yeah, I don't 1367 01:20:55,198 --> 01:21:00,738 know, hour or so here, very bullish, uh, enjoying the energy, um, to, 1368 01:21:00,738 --> 01:21:03,668 to be honest, I don't have anything specific, uh, anything else would 1369 01:21:03,678 --> 01:21:08,928 be into a rabbit hole, but, uh, I've appreciated your, uh, your time and, uh, 1370 01:21:09,068 --> 01:21:13,108 take on this, uh, any final thoughts, anything else on your mind these days? 1371 01:21:13,588 --> 01:21:13,828 what 1372 01:21:17,278 --> 01:21:20,728 Rob, sincerely, you should have Luke on and, uh, on your show 1373 01:21:20,728 --> 01:21:22,198 and talk about maps of meaning. 1374 01:21:22,608 --> 01:21:23,898 That's, um, that's my 1375 01:21:23,928 --> 01:21:24,388 I would love 1376 01:21:24,558 --> 01:21:24,978 for the day. 1377 01:21:25,658 --> 01:21:26,658 Yeah, I would love to. 1378 01:21:26,698 --> 01:21:28,758 Um, I would definitely love to. 1379 01:21:28,768 --> 01:21:31,288 So please feel free to like email me. 1380 01:21:31,298 --> 01:21:33,808 What we usually do is a conversation outline beforehand. 1381 01:21:34,678 --> 01:21:38,168 And then I'll just go through that and we can get a time to talk on the books. 1382 01:21:38,718 --> 01:21:42,708 Um, and yeah, Knut, thank you for having me. 1383 01:21:42,878 --> 01:21:43,508 Um. 1384 01:21:43,968 --> 01:21:45,908 Always enjoy our conversations. 1385 01:21:46,611 --> 01:21:51,111 I, you know, this it's mind bending still to me that it's just this, 1386 01:21:51,741 --> 01:21:55,601 just this monetary innovation, which is, I never thought it would 1387 01:21:55,611 --> 01:22:00,091 be such a philosophical rabbit hole in so many different directions. 1388 01:22:00,121 --> 01:22:05,351 And, um, I don't know, sometimes I catch myself like the things I'm reading about 1389 01:22:05,351 --> 01:22:09,141 or thinking about, I'm like, how did this all, how did Bitcoin lead to all this? 1390 01:22:09,971 --> 01:22:10,211 Yeah. 1391 01:22:10,401 --> 01:22:16,366 uh, I feel very grateful, but um, also maybe even overwhelmed at times is how 1392 01:22:16,366 --> 01:22:21,633 many different directions, Bitcoin takes the mind and so always really like, 1393 01:22:21,733 --> 01:22:24,683 really like talking to you because it seems like you're on a similar path and. 1394 01:22:25,153 --> 01:22:26,833 We always have fun things to talk about. 1395 01:22:27,488 --> 01:22:27,758 Right. 1396 01:22:27,758 --> 01:22:29,468 By catch you and, yeah. 1397 01:22:29,498 --> 01:22:30,368 Came for the Lambo. 1398 01:22:30,368 --> 01:22:31,658 Stayed for Zen, I 1399 01:22:31,855 --> 01:22:32,108 guess. 1400 01:22:32,763 --> 01:22:33,573 exactly. 1401 01:22:34,423 --> 01:22:35,013 Exactly. 1402 01:22:36,843 --> 01:22:39,293 Yep, I think I think that's a perfect way to end it on. 1403 01:22:39,293 --> 01:22:42,743 So thanks again, Rob, for joining us on the Freedom Footprint show. 1404 01:22:43,633 --> 01:22:44,133 Thank you guys. 1405 01:22:45,325 --> 01:22:45,585 Yeah. 1406 01:22:45,585 --> 01:22:49,115 Like, subscribe and brush your teeth and click the little bell for notifications 1407 01:22:49,145 --> 01:22:50,605 and follow Rob's channel as well. 1408 01:22:52,055 --> 01:22:55,547 Actually, did you want to do an official where you want to, where do you want to 1409 01:22:55,557 --> 01:22:56,157 to find you. 1410 01:22:56,817 --> 01:22:59,637 Uh, yeah, I, I'm whatismoneypodcast. 1411 01:22:59,677 --> 01:23:05,057 com, uh, or Twitter's my biggest social platform at breedlove22. 1412 01:23:06,211 --> 01:23:06,711 Perfect. 1413 01:23:07,151 --> 01:23:07,841 Thanks again. 1414 01:23:08,081 --> 01:23:09,321 This has been the Freedom Footprint show. 1415 01:23:10,350 --> 01:23:12,180 So what did you think of that episode with Robert? 1416 01:23:12,810 --> 01:23:15,940 I really enjoyed digging into Maps of Meaning with him and his explanation 1417 01:23:15,940 --> 01:23:18,830 of Leela has sent that book right to the top of my reading list. 1418 01:23:19,640 --> 01:23:20,710 What was your favorite moment? 1419 01:23:20,990 --> 01:23:21,610 Let us know. 1420 01:23:22,050 --> 01:23:25,140 You can send us a boostogram on Fountain, leave us a comment on YouTube, 1421 01:23:25,150 --> 01:23:27,200 or get in touch on Nostr or Twitter. 1422 01:23:27,940 --> 01:23:30,060 If you're watching on YouTube don't forget to like the episode 1423 01:23:30,060 --> 01:23:31,150 and subscribe to the channel. 1424 01:23:31,680 --> 01:23:35,530 Our show's sponsors are Amber App, Wasabi Wallet, Orange Pill 1425 01:23:35,530 --> 01:23:37,850 App, The Bitcoin Way, and Geyser. 1426 01:23:38,550 --> 01:23:42,850 Check out their details in the That's all for now, see you next 1427 01:23:42,860 --> 01:23:44,710 time, and thanks for listening.