Bitcoin Adoption and Resiliency with Tuur Demeester - Freedom Footprint Show 51

1 00:00:00,109 --> 00:00:03,589 one number that I've long looked at, like for a very long time is, 2 00:00:03,627 --> 00:00:05,272 just simple internet adoption. 3 00:00:05,302 --> 00:00:09,832 If you look at the percentages I think early 1995, it was 9%, and then it 4 00:00:09,832 --> 00:00:11,762 jumped to 16 percent in the next year. 5 00:00:11,812 --> 00:00:15,242 So to me, that is what I want to see in Bitcoin, where like, we can 6 00:00:15,242 --> 00:00:18,892 really say like, Ooh, this is a moment where we're really going mainstream. 7 00:00:18,902 --> 00:00:20,852 And I think it's coming this cycle. 8 00:00:21,056 --> 00:00:24,666 it doesn't mean we have complete saturation, but it does mean that the. 9 00:00:25,046 --> 00:00:27,006 The S curve starts to accelerate 10 00:00:27,294 --> 00:00:30,084 Welcome back to the Freedom Footprint show, the Bitcoin 11 00:00:30,084 --> 00:00:33,794 philosophy show with Knut Svanholm and me, Luke the Pseudo Finn. 12 00:00:34,168 --> 00:00:38,221 In today's episode, we're joined by Tur Demeester, editor in chief at Adamant 13 00:00:38,231 --> 00:00:39,801 Research and long time Bitcoiner. 14 00:00:40,383 --> 00:00:44,363 In this in person interview recorded at Baltic Honey Badger 2023, we 15 00:00:44,363 --> 00:00:45,973 explore a wide range of topics. 16 00:00:46,093 --> 00:00:48,663 We discuss the connection between Bitcoin and Austrian economics. 17 00:00:49,003 --> 00:00:50,763 We explore trends in Bitcoin adoption. 18 00:00:51,093 --> 00:00:52,863 And we consider Bitcoin's resiliency. 19 00:00:53,230 --> 00:00:56,370 We even cover how we can avoid the biggest long term threat to Bitcoin. 20 00:00:56,520 --> 00:00:57,400 Stay tuned for that. 21 00:00:58,017 --> 00:01:01,237 But before we jump in, a quick reminder that the best way to support the show 22 00:01:01,237 --> 00:01:04,357 is to send us a boost or stream us some sats using a value for value 23 00:01:04,387 --> 00:01:06,157 podcasting app such as 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00:01:33,342 --> 00:01:34,442 It would be a big help. 37 00:01:35,152 --> 00:01:38,212 And finally, we want to thank today's sponsors Wasabi Wallet, 38 00:01:38,392 --> 00:01:40,332 Orange Pill App, The Bitcoin Way. 39 00:01:43,307 --> 00:01:44,917 We'll be talking a bit more about them later. 40 00:01:45,867 --> 00:01:50,027 And now, without further ado, here is Thurde Meester on 41 00:01:50,080 --> 00:01:51,010 the Freedom Footprint show. 42 00:01:51,730 --> 00:01:53,020 Welcome to the Freedom Footprint Show. 43 00:01:53,020 --> 00:01:53,080 Yeah. 44 00:01:53,160 --> 00:01:56,230 We've, we've been, uh, eager to talk to you for a long time. 45 00:01:56,230 --> 00:01:56,320 Yeah. 46 00:01:56,320 --> 00:01:58,480 Or like, we've been talking about talking for 47 00:01:58,570 --> 00:01:59,230 quite some time. 48 00:01:59,230 --> 00:01:59,290 Yeah. 49 00:01:59,295 --> 00:02:01,960 And it's so nice when you can finally meet someone in person. 50 00:02:01,965 --> 00:02:02,080 Yeah. 51 00:02:02,170 --> 00:02:02,440 Yeah. 52 00:02:02,500 --> 00:02:05,020 It just, it's so much nicer than to do it over 53 00:02:05,020 --> 00:02:05,410 Zoom. 54 00:02:05,830 --> 00:02:06,010 Yeah. 55 00:02:06,015 --> 00:02:06,340 Yeah. 56 00:02:06,340 --> 00:02:06,341 Yeah. 57 00:02:06,790 --> 00:02:10,930 And, uh, yeah, give us the, the T L D R on tour. 58 00:02:10,930 --> 00:02:11,950 Dester, who are you? 59 00:02:11,950 --> 00:02:14,190 And uh, what is your thing 60 00:02:14,190 --> 00:02:15,090 like, uh, sure. 61 00:02:15,665 --> 00:02:16,125 Yeah. 62 00:02:16,165 --> 00:02:19,545 Um, I mean, I grew up in Belgium. 63 00:02:19,585 --> 00:02:26,665 I, um, kind of was very undecided about what to do after, after high school. 64 00:02:26,665 --> 00:02:28,145 I tried like a million things. 65 00:02:28,145 --> 00:02:30,375 I dropped out of university. 66 00:02:30,375 --> 00:02:31,685 Um, I traveled. 67 00:02:31,685 --> 00:02:34,885 I, I lived in Norway for a year, all kinds of stuff. 68 00:02:34,925 --> 00:02:41,310 Um, eventually found, um, Some Austrian school ideas, like early on, like, uh, 69 00:02:41,310 --> 00:02:45,880 you know, Human Action from Mises and some other books that, and not just 70 00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:47,370 me, like, several friends of mine. 71 00:02:47,800 --> 00:02:48,690 Did you read Human 72 00:02:48,690 --> 00:02:49,000 Action 73 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:49,830 at an early age? 74 00:02:51,150 --> 00:02:55,080 It was it was, uh, it was Human Action. 75 00:02:55,090 --> 00:02:58,420 We were, I mean, not that young, like, you know, twenty... 76 00:02:58,835 --> 00:03:04,865 Maybe I was 22, 23 or something, um, but yeah, to me, it was very profound to 77 00:03:04,865 --> 00:03:09,305 encounter that stuff, because not only was it economic ideas that made sense, 78 00:03:09,305 --> 00:03:12,635 but like, the first part of human action is just, you know, hardcore philosophy, 79 00:03:12,855 --> 00:03:18,335 and he basically just, you know, wipes the floor with like, relativism, and 80 00:03:18,345 --> 00:03:22,155 a lot of things I had been struggling with, like free will, or like, you 81 00:03:22,155 --> 00:03:26,555 know, the power of the group, or like, all these kind of ideas that are, I 82 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:30,920 Almost, like, subliminally passed on to you through public schooling, you know. 83 00:03:31,910 --> 00:03:36,650 Mises was very, not only talking about them, but very decisively 84 00:03:36,660 --> 00:03:38,250 debunking a bunch of those things. 85 00:03:38,250 --> 00:03:42,080 And it was such a, it was very emotional, like, for me to, like, 86 00:03:42,090 --> 00:03:43,460 you know, be exposed to that. 87 00:03:43,500 --> 00:03:47,640 And, uh, and so from then on, I really, that became a big part of my life. 88 00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:50,710 Like, you know, economics, Austrian school, philosophy. 89 00:03:50,890 --> 00:03:52,430 Yeah, same thing happened to me. 90 00:03:52,440 --> 00:03:54,370 Like, I, I, I couldn't let go of the book. 91 00:03:54,955 --> 00:04:00,085 People think it's a hard read, but I felt, uh, I think it flows very well. 92 00:04:00,085 --> 00:04:02,745 And I mean, there are long sentences, but. 93 00:04:03,160 --> 00:04:03,690 Come on. 94 00:04:04,060 --> 00:04:07,220 And it's also, it's so quotable, like it's so dense. 95 00:04:07,260 --> 00:04:07,970 I love that. 96 00:04:07,980 --> 00:04:08,820 There's no fluff. 97 00:04:08,860 --> 00:04:09,360 You can just 98 00:04:09,630 --> 00:04:09,660 like... 99 00:04:10,130 --> 00:04:12,620 It's like 1, 800 pages of no fluff. 100 00:04:13,820 --> 00:04:17,110 So that's why I wrote the Praxeology book, to like squeeze those 101 00:04:17,120 --> 00:04:19,560 1, 800 pages into 130 instead. 102 00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:24,960 And like, uh, I don't know if I succeeded or not, but I, I felt there was a... 103 00:04:25,050 --> 00:04:26,620 whole in the market there for a 104 00:04:26,930 --> 00:04:28,260 beginner's level, of course. 105 00:04:28,320 --> 00:04:30,390 And Mises, like, he invents new words. 106 00:04:30,470 --> 00:04:33,450 I mean, clearly he is German in his mother tongue. 107 00:04:33,450 --> 00:04:35,400 I think he only moved to the US when he was 108 00:04:35,530 --> 00:04:35,690 60. 109 00:04:36,210 --> 00:04:39,560 Yeah, and he was friends with Ayn Rand, or became friends over there, 110 00:04:39,560 --> 00:04:41,130 and they have, like, a similar story. 111 00:04:41,130 --> 00:04:42,810 His life story is fascinating. 112 00:04:42,820 --> 00:04:45,010 Yeah, yeah, absolutely. 113 00:04:45,792 --> 00:04:50,212 I mean, that whole rabbit hole is so, to me it felt like reading 114 00:04:50,232 --> 00:04:55,252 something like Newton or something, something very fundamental that was 115 00:04:55,252 --> 00:05:00,372 just missing from the entire school curricula, like, this is like, holy 116 00:05:00,382 --> 00:05:02,232 shit, why haven't we talked about this? 117 00:05:02,232 --> 00:05:08,192 This is as important as mathematics, really, but, and I think it was 118 00:05:08,342 --> 00:05:12,917 Rob Breedlove who said in a, just a casual conversation that Uh, 119 00:05:13,187 --> 00:05:17,007 praxeology is to the subjective what mathematics is to the objective. 120 00:05:17,107 --> 00:05:21,207 And I, of course, I use that in my book because I think it's so, I think 121 00:05:21,217 --> 00:05:23,327 that puts the finger on what it is. 122 00:05:24,507 --> 00:05:26,637 I think Mises would be very happy with that because his brother 123 00:05:26,637 --> 00:05:27,727 was a mathematician, right? 124 00:05:27,727 --> 00:05:32,037 And so to like, to have that validation that people see his, his 125 00:05:32,447 --> 00:05:38,217 thoroughness as a, as being so Solid, that you can actually even compare 126 00:05:38,217 --> 00:05:39,547 it with something like mathematics. 127 00:05:40,207 --> 00:05:44,997 Yeah, and, yeah, because, like, mathematics is a priori, too, in a sense. 128 00:05:45,027 --> 00:05:50,577 It starts from a set of irrefutable axioms, like 1 plus 1 equals 2, 129 00:05:50,907 --> 00:05:53,597 because we define 2 as 1 plus 1. 130 00:05:54,137 --> 00:05:54,347 Yep. 131 00:05:54,397 --> 00:05:56,717 Sort of, and, uh, yeah, this... 132 00:05:56,732 --> 00:06:01,832 Just a priori versus a posteriori or logical deductive 133 00:06:01,832 --> 00:06:05,142 reasoning versus empiricism. 134 00:06:05,402 --> 00:06:10,602 I think that's so much there, like it, for me, it put the finger on why, 135 00:06:11,142 --> 00:06:14,672 like, why science, empirical science. 136 00:06:14,947 --> 00:06:18,387 And empirical science by itself just isn't enough to understand the 137 00:06:18,387 --> 00:06:22,657 world, like you need to understand incentives to understand anything. 138 00:06:22,657 --> 00:06:26,647 Right, and empirical science has a lot of presuppositions that are not 139 00:06:26,917 --> 00:06:28,277 talked about, that are actually a 140 00:06:28,297 --> 00:06:28,887 priori. 141 00:06:29,317 --> 00:06:33,427 Yeah, yeah, and also that it's never precise because the map 142 00:06:33,427 --> 00:06:34,787 can never be the territory. 143 00:06:35,207 --> 00:06:41,107 That's the a priori is precise and that's, that's why it's limited, but it's also 144 00:06:41,107 --> 00:06:44,227 why it's so more rigid, I would say. 145 00:06:44,387 --> 00:06:44,757 Right. 146 00:06:44,887 --> 00:06:45,077 Yeah. 147 00:06:45,327 --> 00:06:46,637 I think there is only one. 148 00:06:48,097 --> 00:06:51,797 It's hard to say if it's, I would have to study it more to decide, like, is 149 00:06:51,797 --> 00:06:53,797 it really a gripe for me with Mises? 150 00:06:54,257 --> 00:06:58,037 It's just that I personally lean more Aristotelian, you know, 151 00:06:58,067 --> 00:07:02,157 which is phenomenology and you're looking at more things from, from 152 00:07:02,157 --> 00:07:04,957 different angles, uh, rather than. 153 00:07:05,062 --> 00:07:09,372 The Kantian framework feels a bit more like, you know, this, this, 154 00:07:10,072 --> 00:07:14,092 this thing is on the board and then you kind of just reason within your 155 00:07:14,122 --> 00:07:15,822 mathematical proof, so to speak. 156 00:07:16,172 --> 00:07:18,852 And I think sometimes you lose aspects of reality. 157 00:07:18,852 --> 00:07:23,172 Like, for example, the, you know, Mises, you know, being so emphatic that, 158 00:07:23,202 --> 00:07:28,392 um, economics needs to be wertfrei, like free from value judgments. 159 00:07:28,892 --> 00:07:29,482 I think he... 160 00:07:30,247 --> 00:07:34,957 Eventually you get stuck, like it gets too limited if you cannot talk about fraud 161 00:07:34,957 --> 00:07:38,847 or theft or, you know, and that's where Rothbard has a bit of a different take. 162 00:07:39,047 --> 00:07:43,767 But like as far as purely aesthetically or just purely as a, 163 00:07:43,817 --> 00:07:48,937 as an experience, I prefer Mises over any of the other, you know, it's, 164 00:07:48,937 --> 00:07:50,577 it's incredible to read, to read 165 00:07:50,577 --> 00:07:50,817 him. 166 00:07:51,077 --> 00:07:54,967 Did you read a Hopper book called, uh, Economic Science and the Austrian 167 00:07:54,967 --> 00:07:55,397 Method? 168 00:07:55,707 --> 00:07:57,327 I, I think I've read. 169 00:07:58,117 --> 00:07:58,757 Parts of it. 170 00:07:58,767 --> 00:08:01,387 Cause at some point, cause he's, this is a method, methodology. 171 00:08:01,527 --> 00:08:03,147 It's a lot about methodology. 172 00:08:03,147 --> 00:08:03,417 Yeah. 173 00:08:03,717 --> 00:08:04,427 I've read parts of it, 174 00:08:05,387 --> 00:08:06,017 I think, a long time ago, 175 00:08:06,047 --> 00:08:06,287 but yeah. 176 00:08:06,287 --> 00:08:07,467 I love that book. 177 00:08:07,987 --> 00:08:08,777 That was also very dense. 178 00:08:09,017 --> 00:08:14,327 It's very much shorter than human action, but yeah, it talks a lot about methodology 179 00:08:14,327 --> 00:08:16,477 and like the differences and how 180 00:08:16,477 --> 00:08:17,437 significant they are. 181 00:08:17,457 --> 00:08:20,077 And does the, uh, go into argumentation ethics there? 182 00:08:20,177 --> 00:08:26,517 Uh, uh, If I remember it, because it touches on it, but argument, 183 00:08:26,787 --> 00:08:30,797 his argumentation, I think it's one of the most profound insights 184 00:08:30,857 --> 00:08:35,107 of the last century and it's never talked about and like, Yeah, 185 00:08:35,107 --> 00:08:37,627 it's, uh, it's very under, underappreciated. 186 00:08:38,227 --> 00:08:38,727 I agree. 187 00:08:38,727 --> 00:08:40,277 It's so powerful. 188 00:08:40,287 --> 00:08:41,077 It's so powerful. 189 00:08:41,117 --> 00:08:41,387 Yeah. 190 00:08:41,627 --> 00:08:45,987 Um, and, and, I mean, who knows in the future, we'll see some, it 191 00:08:45,987 --> 00:08:49,387 would be great to have some debates about how, how it started and 192 00:08:49,387 --> 00:08:55,122 where, where, um, Uh, where, uh, Argumentation Ethics started, because... 193 00:08:56,652 --> 00:09:01,142 I think they were independently kind of uncovered, discovered, uh, both by 194 00:09:01,142 --> 00:09:04,392 Hoppe and then a little bit earlier, Frank van Doorn, but he wrote in 195 00:09:04,402 --> 00:09:09,552 Dutch, and so he had a whole, uh, the, the foundational principle of law, 196 00:09:09,862 --> 00:09:14,562 which he basically makes the argument from argumentation, um, And so they 197 00:09:14,562 --> 00:09:16,692 really complement each other nicely. 198 00:09:16,972 --> 00:09:17,482 But I agree. 199 00:09:17,482 --> 00:09:21,142 It's so, you know, it's so foundational. 200 00:09:21,152 --> 00:09:25,352 Although I think, you know, if you're an Aristotelian, it's more like it's one 201 00:09:25,352 --> 00:09:28,872 proof, but I think you can find multiple proofs to kind of, kind of, you know, be 202 00:09:28,872 --> 00:09:31,002 going at the same framework eventually. 203 00:09:31,272 --> 00:09:31,642 Yeah. 204 00:09:31,752 --> 00:09:32,092 Yeah. 205 00:09:32,092 --> 00:09:39,542 And it's tightly connected to philosophy, as you say, like they're tangent 206 00:09:39,552 --> 00:09:42,162 to one another, the way I see it. 207 00:09:42,575 --> 00:09:42,935 All right. 208 00:09:42,935 --> 00:09:48,532 So, so, if we take the, uh, the deep hopium stuff about Bitcoin and that we 209 00:09:48,532 --> 00:09:53,042 will hyperbitcoinize and it'll take over everything, does that in your mind, does 210 00:09:53,072 --> 00:09:55,592 that remove violence from the equation? 211 00:09:56,072 --> 00:10:00,702 Almost entirely, so that what we have is, left is argumentation 212 00:10:00,702 --> 00:10:04,502 and just conversation and, well, peace, world peace. 213 00:10:04,552 --> 00:10:04,922 Is that 214 00:10:04,932 --> 00:10:05,582 where we're going? 215 00:10:05,622 --> 00:10:08,492 Yeah, I, I, I'm afraid it's not enough. 216 00:10:08,512 --> 00:10:13,742 I, I really am of the camp that like, even under a gold standard, you had 217 00:10:13,742 --> 00:10:18,352 enormously bloody wars and, you know, and, and, uh, a lot of, a lot of issues. 218 00:10:18,352 --> 00:10:20,102 I think that, you know, there's a great. 219 00:10:20,707 --> 00:10:21,967 Opportunity here. 220 00:10:21,977 --> 00:10:23,807 Like that's what I had my talk about today. 221 00:10:23,807 --> 00:10:28,827 This is great opportunity because uh, if you think about the principles 222 00:10:28,837 --> 00:10:32,497 that allow for peace in society, one of those principles, I think 223 00:10:32,497 --> 00:10:36,467 there are four according to Van Den and I follow him, there's four. 224 00:10:36,467 --> 00:10:40,992 One of them is Restriction of access, you know, because if you have open 225 00:10:40,992 --> 00:10:44,882 access, if any kind of, there's no real property rights, right? 226 00:10:44,942 --> 00:10:48,242 If your stuff and mine, it's all fuzzy and that then people live 227 00:10:48,242 --> 00:10:53,252 in this perennial uncertainty, anxiety, anything can be conscious. 228 00:10:54,147 --> 00:10:55,967 The Fiat regime is kind of like that. 229 00:10:56,037 --> 00:10:58,967 Because literally your bank account is just a free for all, you know, 230 00:10:59,047 --> 00:11:02,417 they can take value from it whenever, whenever they want, you know, 231 00:11:02,427 --> 00:11:06,377 banks or governments or whoever's, whoever can add to the money supply. 232 00:11:06,807 --> 00:11:08,527 And so Bitcoin. 233 00:11:09,397 --> 00:11:13,597 And of course, the cypherpunk movement as a whole, and encryption, all that 234 00:11:13,597 --> 00:11:19,087 technology allows you to restrict access, um, restrict the world from 235 00:11:19,087 --> 00:11:23,187 accessing your, what's yours, your property, and so it's a great engine 236 00:11:23,187 --> 00:11:27,637 for peace, you know, and it creates that certainty, so it's a super important 237 00:11:27,637 --> 00:11:33,897 and foundational But I still think we need more than just that to, to really 238 00:11:34,267 --> 00:11:40,267 go towards, um, a society where, yeah, I mean, ideally there is no war, right? 239 00:11:40,267 --> 00:11:41,197 I mean, that's a pretty, pretty. 240 00:11:41,947 --> 00:11:43,247 What would that more be 241 00:11:43,247 --> 00:11:43,757 though? 242 00:11:43,847 --> 00:11:44,307 Yeah. 243 00:11:44,677 --> 00:11:47,687 So, so the other principles. 244 00:11:48,442 --> 00:11:54,292 One of the other two foundational principles, uh, is, is unity, which you 245 00:11:54,292 --> 00:11:59,062 could kind of dismiss because unity is the idea that if, if, uh, you know, you 246 00:11:59,062 --> 00:12:03,102 are sitting there with two, you're both thirsty, there's only one bottle of water. 247 00:12:03,112 --> 00:12:04,522 How do we prevent conflict? 248 00:12:04,852 --> 00:12:07,462 Well, we make sure there's only one person sitting there. 249 00:12:07,502 --> 00:12:09,462 So, so like physically, how do you do that? 250 00:12:09,462 --> 00:12:11,962 How do you create one out of multiple people? 251 00:12:12,392 --> 00:12:17,749 And I do think there is something to be said for Embracing the idea that 252 00:12:17,749 --> 00:12:21,569 you are part of something bigger, like that's why we don't murder other people, 253 00:12:21,579 --> 00:12:25,049 because we feel like we're part of humanity, right, it kind of, it kind of 254 00:12:25,089 --> 00:12:29,399 elevates us, or like, you know, people have certain ethical standards because 255 00:12:29,399 --> 00:12:32,706 they feel like, it's not just for me selfishly, it's just because it is. 256 00:12:32,706 --> 00:12:32,893 It is. 257 00:12:33,134 --> 00:12:37,044 I want to be part of something bigger that, that is, that, that means something. 258 00:12:37,054 --> 00:12:43,794 And so that is like another, that, that sense of, of unity to be, to voluntarily, 259 00:12:43,794 --> 00:12:49,179 which is important, to voluntarily give up a little bit of your Individual 260 00:12:49,179 --> 00:12:54,359 preferences to elevate the greater good, I think is, uh, it's, it sounds very corny, 261 00:12:54,359 --> 00:12:58,459 but I think it's, it's pretty, pretty foundational because in a way, like some 262 00:12:58,459 --> 00:13:04,829 of the goodwill is, some of that goodwill is sometimes what people give up to invest 263 00:13:04,889 --> 00:13:08,279 in understanding Bitcoin, because they feel like, oh, maybe this is something 264 00:13:08,279 --> 00:13:10,809 that can make things better for everyone. 265 00:13:11,369 --> 00:13:14,469 Um, or, or even if it's against my career, I'm still going to have 266 00:13:14,469 --> 00:13:18,269 the intellectual honesty, just, you know, so that's just one, one other. 267 00:13:18,929 --> 00:13:22,469 Example, and then there's a few more, but there they're more higher up. 268 00:13:22,469 --> 00:13:25,709 And it's more to do with like, uh, having a healthy debating culture, 269 00:13:25,709 --> 00:13:27,479 for example, like free speech. 270 00:13:27,479 --> 00:13:31,379 And, and, uh, I think, I don't think Bitcoin guarantees that. 271 00:13:31,384 --> 00:13:35,999 I think Bitcoin can facilitate some of it, but we still need to do the work to Well, 272 00:13:36,089 --> 00:13:38,939 can Bitcoin culture though that then like Yeah. 273 00:13:38,939 --> 00:13:40,049 Is, is Oh yeah. 274 00:13:40,049 --> 00:13:40,050 Yeah. 275 00:13:40,319 --> 00:13:43,769 But it's, but it, but that's something that is alive and that we also need Yeah. 276 00:13:43,799 --> 00:13:44,549 It's like a garden. 277 00:13:44,549 --> 00:13:45,629 You need to maintain it. 278 00:13:45,809 --> 00:13:45,959 Yeah. 279 00:13:45,964 --> 00:13:46,139 Yeah. 280 00:13:46,139 --> 00:13:46,259 You 281 00:13:46,259 --> 00:13:47,389 know, but that's the thing. 282 00:13:48,549 --> 00:13:53,239 For me, it's hard to make the distinction between the protocol, the money, the 283 00:13:53,249 --> 00:14:00,359 culture, like it's all part of the same organism in a way, and it's, I see it 284 00:14:00,359 --> 00:14:05,409 as, as like being just different aspects of the same phenomenon, which is just 285 00:14:05,729 --> 00:14:10,439 Oh, we found a way to communicate value with one another without third parties. 286 00:14:10,609 --> 00:14:15,589 And that's so profound, like that means, that means peace. 287 00:14:15,619 --> 00:14:19,929 Like the way I put it in one of the books was like, when you cannot put a, when you 288 00:14:20,179 --> 00:14:22,119 cannot know how much another person owns. 289 00:14:22,594 --> 00:14:26,574 Which is true for everyone on earth right now, since they might 290 00:14:26,584 --> 00:14:30,834 hold a private key in their heads, and you cannot take it by force. 291 00:14:31,624 --> 00:14:35,104 The best way to enrich yourself is by interacting peacefully 292 00:14:35,104 --> 00:14:36,204 and trading with that person. 293 00:14:36,434 --> 00:14:37,744 And violence, the, the... 294 00:14:38,509 --> 00:14:42,969 The shelling point for violence, if you will, or like the incentive to, to aggress 295 00:14:42,979 --> 00:14:44,759 against another goes down drastically. 296 00:14:45,269 --> 00:14:49,869 But what, what I struggle with is like, how drastically, like, uh, game theory 297 00:14:49,869 --> 00:14:53,599 sort of says that you get half of the Bitcoin if you like torture the guy. 298 00:14:53,869 --> 00:14:58,739 But, uh, but, but still, I think it's, I think it's more than that 299 00:14:58,759 --> 00:15:03,409 because the, the incentives to just be good to one another are. 300 00:15:05,019 --> 00:15:06,419 They get boosted as well. 301 00:15:06,439 --> 00:15:10,449 Like that, that vector is very, very powerful. 302 00:15:11,599 --> 00:15:11,959 Yeah. 303 00:15:11,959 --> 00:15:13,519 I mean, I, I hear you. 304 00:15:13,519 --> 00:15:15,019 I think it's very significant. 305 00:15:15,049 --> 00:15:20,519 Uh, I, where I would hesitate is just, you know, maybe it depends on how long 306 00:15:20,519 --> 00:15:21,829 a timeframe we're talking about here. 307 00:15:22,219 --> 00:15:26,239 For example, when, when the printing press was invented and, and, and, you 308 00:15:26,239 --> 00:15:30,029 know, gradually books became cheaper, like the price of a book went roughly 309 00:15:30,029 --> 00:15:34,914 from, A year's labor, which is in the Middle Ages, to the price of a chicken. 310 00:15:34,924 --> 00:15:38,094 Like that's, that's how much drastically information became 311 00:15:38,094 --> 00:15:39,774 cheaper in that one century. 312 00:15:40,254 --> 00:15:47,074 Um, you know, back then, imagine realizing like, oh my God, information has been 313 00:15:47,084 --> 00:15:49,144 locked up for centuries and centuries. 314 00:15:49,174 --> 00:15:51,074 All of a sudden, it's liberated. 315 00:15:51,344 --> 00:15:54,214 Everyone is going to have access to these incredible ideas. 316 00:15:54,624 --> 00:15:56,484 They can make up their own opinion, you know. 317 00:15:56,904 --> 00:15:58,934 Uh, this is such a force for good. 318 00:16:00,109 --> 00:16:05,019 I would agree with that, but at the same time, over many generations, some of 319 00:16:05,019 --> 00:16:10,239 the appreciation for how valuable it is to have like a plethora of ideas, how 320 00:16:10,239 --> 00:16:13,489 important it is to have freedom of speech, because I think a lot of the enlightenment 321 00:16:13,499 --> 00:16:18,109 thinkers were really trying to Come up with theoretical foundations for why 322 00:16:18,109 --> 00:16:21,599 freedom of speech is important, because they, it was a fact, it was happening, 323 00:16:21,599 --> 00:16:26,049 people were interacting more freely than before, and so they needed new theories 324 00:16:26,059 --> 00:16:30,169 to try and justify that, and so, you know, I think still, the theory, and I think 325 00:16:30,169 --> 00:16:34,929 they You know, you could kind of debate on how successful the Enlightenment was in 326 00:16:34,929 --> 00:16:38,369 really elevating humanity and not throwing the baby away with the, because there 327 00:16:38,369 --> 00:16:42,479 were some good things in the Middle Ages, so, so that's, I think, you know, that's 328 00:16:42,479 --> 00:16:46,608 kind of our job, is to start working on trying to sort of live up to that. 329 00:16:46,959 --> 00:16:51,979 Really, uh, treasure what's great about Bitcoin, help people understand what's 330 00:16:51,979 --> 00:16:57,159 great about Bitcoin so that the ethos of Bitcoin can really spread and people don't 331 00:16:57,159 --> 00:16:59,329 get confused in a couple generations. 332 00:16:59,819 --> 00:17:04,239 There's, there's a section in a Rothbard book called The Ethics of Liberty 333 00:17:04,289 --> 00:17:09,068 about freedom of speech, which changed my mind on it because like he, he, 334 00:17:09,219 --> 00:17:15,059 points out that everyone forgets to ask, like the, there's a word missing. 335 00:17:15,149 --> 00:17:17,279 Are you, are you pro freedom of speech? 336 00:17:17,729 --> 00:17:21,319 Well, the question should be freedom of, the counter question 337 00:17:21,319 --> 00:17:22,769 should be freedom of speech where? 338 00:17:23,349 --> 00:17:27,879 And you realize that it's only in publicly owned spaces that freedom 339 00:17:27,879 --> 00:17:32,139 of speech is important, because he argues that freedom of speech is only 340 00:17:33,099 --> 00:17:37,859 Necessary because property rights have been violated at some point, because 341 00:17:38,109 --> 00:17:43,919 if I own my house, I get to dictate the rules in my house from natural law and 342 00:17:44,279 --> 00:17:46,429 ethics, Austrian ethics, if you will. 343 00:17:46,859 --> 00:17:52,759 Uh, so, so, so he argues that freedom of speech is sort of a facade in the 344 00:17:52,759 --> 00:17:57,724 sense that It needs to be preceded by a violation of property rights. 345 00:17:58,794 --> 00:18:01,264 I find that framework very interesting. 346 00:18:01,404 --> 00:18:03,034 Wow, yeah, I like that a lot. 347 00:18:03,064 --> 00:18:08,634 And you can think about a place like Dubai or even Saudi Arabia as 348 00:18:08,634 --> 00:18:13,814 compared to, you know, a European free speech maximalist place. 349 00:18:15,469 --> 00:18:21,579 And you could argue that, yeah, sure, uh, freedom of speech is suppressed here in 350 00:18:21,579 --> 00:18:27,669 the, uh, in Dubai to a certain extent, but, but the property rights are stronger 351 00:18:28,099 --> 00:18:32,709 and which one is more important because like in, in Sweden, for instance, you 352 00:18:32,709 --> 00:18:36,259 don't have the same level of property rights, but you have freedom of speech, 353 00:18:36,699 --> 00:18:41,859 uh, which leads to people burning the Quran and, uh, there's a big, um, uh, 354 00:18:41,919 --> 00:18:46,069 police escort for the guy burning it and there's a big riot and the media 355 00:18:46,069 --> 00:18:52,719 is there and they're turning this into this big news event and like what what's 356 00:18:52,719 --> 00:18:57,339 more important like property rights or freedom of speech or is is that dichotomy 357 00:18:57,339 --> 00:18:59,569 real or what are your thoughts on that 358 00:18:59,569 --> 00:19:03,239 yeah yeah Yeah, well I think property rights are more foundational. 359 00:19:03,239 --> 00:19:07,599 I think property rights belong to, um, the, the layer of 360 00:19:07,599 --> 00:19:08,999 the restriction of access. 361 00:19:09,099 --> 00:19:11,479 And I think that is, that is just more foundational. 362 00:19:11,849 --> 00:19:17,619 Um, and then that enables, uh, the safety to engage in open debates, to 363 00:19:17,689 --> 00:19:19,339 have all these differences in opinions. 364 00:19:19,339 --> 00:19:23,849 Because if I know that you're going to respect my body, we're, we're, Get 365 00:19:23,849 --> 00:19:25,179 into argumentation ethics, almost. 366 00:19:25,439 --> 00:19:27,989 If I know you're going to respect my bodily integrity, well, 367 00:19:27,989 --> 00:19:29,429 then I feel safe to say things. 368 00:19:29,439 --> 00:19:32,439 If you're sitting in front of me and you're playing with your 369 00:19:32,439 --> 00:19:35,729 knife, and I know you have a history of assault, I'm going to be 370 00:19:35,919 --> 00:19:36,399 more careful. 371 00:19:36,589 --> 00:19:37,739 What's that quote? 372 00:19:37,829 --> 00:19:40,449 It's easier to get what you want with a kind word and a 373 00:19:40,449 --> 00:19:42,219 gun than with just a kind word. 374 00:19:42,809 --> 00:19:43,279 Exactly. 375 00:19:43,689 --> 00:19:44,699 Yeah, no, totally. 376 00:19:45,704 --> 00:19:46,174 Yeah. 377 00:19:46,444 --> 00:19:46,794 So yeah. 378 00:19:46,794 --> 00:19:48,404 And so to me, that, that is also right. 379 00:19:48,404 --> 00:19:52,914 I mean, had, had Rothbard been around during the enlightenment and kind of 380 00:19:52,914 --> 00:19:58,134 like, you know, whip some sense into metaphorically into the philosophy of 381 00:19:58,134 --> 00:20:02,484 the day, maybe there would have been a stronger foundation for, for freedom 382 00:20:02,484 --> 00:20:08,274 of speech or, or just thinking about intellectual expression than we have now. 383 00:20:08,821 --> 00:20:12,001 I think, I think this is a really interesting line here when we, when we 384 00:20:12,001 --> 00:20:15,311 tie it into the Bitcoin of it all, right? 385 00:20:15,661 --> 00:20:20,241 Uh, I, I think the, the line between all we'll talk about here, 386 00:20:20,241 --> 00:20:23,501 the, the argumentation ethics, Austrian economics and all this. 387 00:20:24,466 --> 00:20:28,066 What, so this is the first thing that you brought, brought up basically, like 388 00:20:28,066 --> 00:20:29,746 you found this stuff before mm-hmm. 389 00:20:29,986 --> 00:20:30,316 Bitcoin. 390 00:20:30,316 --> 00:20:30,406 Oh, yeah. 391 00:20:30,586 --> 00:20:30,796 Right. 392 00:20:30,796 --> 00:20:30,916 Oh yeah. 393 00:20:31,156 --> 00:20:34,126 And so, and so how did that influence your journey into Bitcoin 394 00:20:34,126 --> 00:20:37,846 and, and how you, uh, found it and, and how it impacts your life? 395 00:20:38,586 --> 00:20:38,736 Yeah. 396 00:20:38,736 --> 00:20:41,326 So, Austrian economics. 397 00:20:41,326 --> 00:20:43,516 Like we started the Rothbard Institute in Belgium. 398 00:20:43,516 --> 00:20:46,306 We translated some books, organized seminars, things like that. 399 00:20:47,030 --> 00:20:54,100 and, uh, I, I started to look for ways to, to use this somehow. 400 00:20:54,130 --> 00:20:57,670 I mean, I, I, I made a little tiny bit of money translating, 401 00:20:57,670 --> 00:20:58,900 so that, that kind of helps. 402 00:20:58,900 --> 00:20:59,260 Actually. 403 00:20:59,260 --> 00:21:03,160 You might know this book, uh, money Bank Credit and Economic Cycles by De Soto. 404 00:21:03,890 --> 00:21:05,020 Yeah, yeah, I heard about it. 405 00:21:05,020 --> 00:21:05,460 I haven't read it. 406 00:21:05,460 --> 00:21:06,500 I translated that to Dutch. 407 00:21:07,350 --> 00:21:08,010 Oh my God. 408 00:21:08,350 --> 00:21:09,510 What's the title in Dutch? 409 00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:11,630 I spent nine months doing that. 410 00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:11,990 Sorry? 411 00:21:12,040 --> 00:21:12,890 What's the title in Dutch? 412 00:21:12,890 --> 00:21:14,500 Geld, Krediet en Krisis. 413 00:21:14,890 --> 00:21:19,310 Yeah, and it's, it appeared in a very low volume, but it's still out there. 414 00:21:19,350 --> 00:21:22,000 Um, the footnotes are just enormous. 415 00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:22,820 It was really hard. 416 00:21:22,850 --> 00:21:27,330 And actually, Koen Swenkels, another Bitcoiner, helped me translate it. 417 00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:30,390 Um, but so yeah, that was, that was work that I did. 418 00:21:30,780 --> 00:21:31,260 Um. 419 00:21:31,765 --> 00:21:36,685 And then, uh, with the Rothbard Institute, uh, yeah, we just wanted to connect with 420 00:21:36,685 --> 00:21:41,185 other communities in Europe, um, and so I remember, for example, going to the 421 00:21:41,195 --> 00:21:47,485 Libertarian Alliance Conference in London 2009, Sean Gabb organized that, and, 422 00:21:47,485 --> 00:21:55,205 uh, they had, um, um, David Friedman, he spoke about, uh, anonymous e cash and 423 00:21:55,215 --> 00:22:00,275 assassination markets, which is very, I mean, weirdly I just listened to it 424 00:22:00,275 --> 00:22:03,765 as a theoretical thing and then only thought about it much later, but I do 425 00:22:03,765 --> 00:22:08,605 think that, like, had a little bit of a seed for me, and then also, I, I needed 426 00:22:08,605 --> 00:22:12,345 to start some kind of a career because I was involved with little private schools 427 00:22:12,345 --> 00:22:16,485 and I was like, man, If, if I ever want to send my kids to a school like this, 428 00:22:16,490 --> 00:22:17,805 I need to find a way to make money. 429 00:22:17,805 --> 00:22:20,565 Like I, you know, I need to be able to pay for tuition and things like that. 430 00:22:20,565 --> 00:22:20,655 Yeah. 431 00:22:21,315 --> 00:22:23,355 So I was like, all right, how do I make a career? 432 00:22:23,355 --> 00:22:27,075 And I started writing about the markets, 'cause the, the things started rumbling by 433 00:22:27,075 --> 00:22:30,645 2006 seven in, in the, in the US markets. 434 00:22:30,645 --> 00:22:30,646 Mm-hmm. 435 00:22:30,652 --> 00:22:34,575 . And so I started writing about the crisis, the economic crisis. 436 00:22:34,875 --> 00:22:39,015 And uh, eventually, uh, in 2010, a publisher found me and 437 00:22:39,015 --> 00:22:41,235 he is like, Hey, you know, you wanna make your job out of this? 438 00:22:42,370 --> 00:22:46,660 I was doing it for free and he basically offered me an opportunity 439 00:22:46,660 --> 00:22:50,280 to become an author of a A financial and investment newsletter. 440 00:22:50,300 --> 00:22:51,580 So that's what I started doing. 441 00:22:51,580 --> 00:22:52,730 That became my career. 442 00:22:53,060 --> 00:22:59,330 And so then, because I was, you know, I had some history background of banking 443 00:22:59,330 --> 00:23:01,560 and finance and this Austrian stuff. 444 00:23:02,070 --> 00:23:05,900 And so I was really thinking about how to find investments 445 00:23:05,900 --> 00:23:07,720 that will keep you safe during... 446 00:23:08,105 --> 00:23:12,035 A banking crisis or doing a very high inflation because I was worried about the 447 00:23:12,035 --> 00:23:13,745 euro or, you know, scenarios like that. 448 00:23:14,145 --> 00:23:18,415 So I traveled to Latin America to learn more about how people, people 449 00:23:18,565 --> 00:23:20,485 survive inflation in general. 450 00:23:20,505 --> 00:23:24,645 And, um, and so then, you know, in Argentina, I learned about Bitcoin. 451 00:23:25,005 --> 00:23:30,295 Friends of mine were mining Bitcoin in their basement, literally in 2011 and, um. 452 00:23:30,565 --> 00:23:31,375 Uh, I'm trying to think. 453 00:23:31,375 --> 00:23:34,485 There was some other touch points with Bitcoin early on. 454 00:23:34,905 --> 00:23:39,425 Uh, well, I guess, yeah, I was just looking for that gold. 455 00:23:39,725 --> 00:23:43,975 I was into the gold world and investing, uh, investigating 456 00:23:43,985 --> 00:23:46,285 mining companies and so... 457 00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:47,450 It made sense. 458 00:23:47,460 --> 00:23:52,030 I had been, you know, downloading, I don't know, like, self help books 459 00:23:52,070 --> 00:23:55,600 with BitTorrent and movies and stuff like that, and so the idea 460 00:23:55,600 --> 00:23:59,750 of, like, a BitTorrent for money, it kind of made sense, you know, so. 461 00:23:59,960 --> 00:24:01,140 And when was this? 462 00:24:02,110 --> 00:24:04,050 I first learned about Bitcoin in, like, uh... 463 00:24:04,295 --> 00:24:06,295 I don't know, I think April 2011 or something. 464 00:24:06,295 --> 00:24:07,075 Yeah, pretty early. 465 00:24:07,095 --> 00:24:08,635 Yeah, very early actually. 466 00:24:08,635 --> 00:24:11,995 And, and, uh, and I had the time to just research it. 467 00:24:11,995 --> 00:24:17,355 And then by early 2012, I, I went, uh, I, I wrote about it for 468 00:24:17,355 --> 00:24:21,875 my subscribers, uh, and actually recommended it also as an investment. 469 00:24:21,875 --> 00:24:26,645 And then I went to a Bitcoin conference in London in 2012 as well. 470 00:24:26,645 --> 00:24:29,985 And then I started making some connections in the Bitcoin world. 471 00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:34,250 So it clicked easily for you? 472 00:24:34,260 --> 00:24:35,290 Like, it clicked fast? 473 00:24:35,820 --> 00:24:36,590 I was just lucky. 474 00:24:36,620 --> 00:24:39,970 I was so lucky that I had, you know, some of the Austrian background, like, you 475 00:24:39,970 --> 00:24:45,430 know, and that also I ran into, I reached out to Pieter Goyle, core developer who 476 00:24:45,430 --> 00:24:48,930 was living in Leuven at the time, like, he's a Belgian, and I had, like, a long 477 00:24:50,280 --> 00:24:54,040 Skype call with him, which I transcribed into an interview for my readers. 478 00:24:54,580 --> 00:24:58,860 And then, of course, my friends in Argentina, like, they really... 479 00:24:59,470 --> 00:25:03,190 were really into Bitcoin, they really, and they also knew their Austrian 480 00:25:03,190 --> 00:25:07,230 economics, so it just, it just really helped to solidify things, yeah. 481 00:25:07,300 --> 00:25:07,740 So, 482 00:25:08,720 --> 00:25:13,110 uh, Argentina, like, there's a Bitcoin scene there now, I don't know how 483 00:25:13,110 --> 00:25:17,330 big it is, but, but it's still kind of small as far as I understand. 484 00:25:17,910 --> 00:25:20,700 And why do you think that is when it's been around for so long? 485 00:25:20,700 --> 00:25:24,500 Like, why doesn't it take off in a place like that where it's, because 486 00:25:25,450 --> 00:25:29,500 people always tell me that it's easy to, um, uh, orange pill people. 487 00:25:29,625 --> 00:25:31,215 who have lived through hyperbitcoinization. 488 00:25:31,235 --> 00:25:32,515 And I've seen it firsthand. 489 00:25:32,605 --> 00:25:37,415 I mean, uh, so, um, so why do you think that is? 490 00:25:37,415 --> 00:25:38,865 Why, why is the community not 491 00:25:38,915 --> 00:25:39,625 larger? 492 00:25:39,805 --> 00:25:42,555 I think there's two, two things I'm thinking of. 493 00:25:43,375 --> 00:25:46,085 One is just Bitcoin is just incredibly volatile. 494 00:25:46,085 --> 00:25:49,755 And so for a lot of Argentinians, you just, you save in dollars, you save. 495 00:25:49,755 --> 00:25:53,685 And I remember back in the day, the number was like 50 billion in paper 496 00:25:53,685 --> 00:25:55,095 money circulating in Argentina. 497 00:25:55,095 --> 00:25:57,125 I think it's now triple that or more. 498 00:25:57,565 --> 00:25:59,745 And so, you know, if you want to buy a house, you just, you know, 499 00:25:59,765 --> 00:26:01,125 just a suitcase with dollar bills. 500 00:26:01,125 --> 00:26:05,395 Like, so, so in a way, they are on a dollar standard in, in, in many 501 00:26:05,415 --> 00:26:07,535 practical, you know, sense of the word. 502 00:26:07,575 --> 00:26:09,315 And so Bitcoin cycles are so long. 503 00:26:10,165 --> 00:26:13,205 It is, you know, if you don't have a lot of savings, really risky to be 504 00:26:13,205 --> 00:26:17,715 very exposed to it, uh, for, for, you know, more than like a couple months. 505 00:26:18,255 --> 00:26:19,275 So I think that's one reason. 506 00:26:19,275 --> 00:26:23,145 I think the other reason may be that there could actually be more adoption, 507 00:26:23,655 --> 00:26:25,735 but there's not a lot of showing. 508 00:26:26,340 --> 00:26:29,650 You know, like, for example, in Belgium, I talked to some people, and I'm surprised, 509 00:26:29,650 --> 00:26:33,920 it's like, man, there's actually quite a lot of adoption, but people keep quiet, 510 00:26:33,970 --> 00:26:40,350 because they don't want to be seen as being rich, or, you know, and so, the 511 00:26:40,360 --> 00:26:43,160 thing is, especially in countries with high inflation, you just don't want to 512 00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:49,650 become a target, so, I think it could 500 billion worth of value around the world 513 00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:53,185 somewhere, and, um, Yeah, I don't know. 514 00:26:53,235 --> 00:26:56,835 So I don't know if it's necessarily lower than in other countries. 515 00:26:56,855 --> 00:27:01,775 I do think the level of education and level of like, um, tech, you know, if a 516 00:27:01,775 --> 00:27:05,235 country is very tech savvy, you do tend to see more Bitcoin adoption, I think. 517 00:27:05,285 --> 00:27:05,575 Yeah. 518 00:27:06,159 --> 00:27:08,049 So how are you enjoying this episode so far? 519 00:27:08,499 --> 00:27:11,509 Before we dive back in, first a little bit about our sponsors. 520 00:27:12,089 --> 00:27:16,939 First up, WasabiWallet, the privacy by default, open source, non custodial 521 00:27:16,939 --> 00:27:18,959 bitcoin wallet with CoinJoin built in. 522 00:27:19,549 --> 00:27:23,549 It's the easy to use, comprehensive, affordable way to make your coins private. 523 00:27:24,114 --> 00:27:27,094 And the best part is, they've been making huge improvements to the app. 524 00:27:27,444 --> 00:27:30,414 They're really focusing on the user experience, adding advanced 525 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to onboard, educate, and remove barriers to 550 00:28:35,069 --> 00:28:36,679 taking self custody of your bitcoin. 551 00:28:37,239 --> 00:28:41,549 They cover everything from cold wallets to nodes, no KYC bitcoin purchases, 552 00:28:41,599 --> 00:28:44,009 inheritance planning, payments, and more. 553 00:28:44,549 --> 00:28:47,369 Whether you're new to bitcoin or you're an experienced bitcoiner looking to 554 00:28:47,369 --> 00:28:51,219 expand your freedom footprint, or you know someone who this sounds perfect for, 555 00:28:51,609 --> 00:28:53,479 the Bitcoin Away has something for you. 556 00:28:54,169 --> 00:28:57,679 They have a skilled team, well versed in the bitcoin space, and their goal is to 557 00:28:57,679 --> 00:29:01,559 make all the complexities of bitcoin as straightforward as possible for everyone. 558 00:29:02,119 --> 00:29:04,629 And the best part is you can get started with a free 30 559 00:29:04,629 --> 00:29:05,819 minute call with their team. 560 00:29:06,349 --> 00:29:07,859 Go to thebitcoinway. 561 00:29:07,889 --> 00:29:10,109 com slash contact for more info. 562 00:29:10,579 --> 00:29:11,609 Alright back to it. 563 00:29:11,649 --> 00:29:13,349 Don't forget to like, subscribe, and brush your teeth. 564 00:29:13,776 --> 00:29:18,886 We, um, recently Found out a number, uh, talking to Christiana, 565 00:29:18,886 --> 00:29:21,256 the, the founder of the B T C X. 566 00:29:21,256 --> 00:29:23,176 The, the oldest Swedish Exchange. 567 00:29:23,386 --> 00:29:23,566 Yeah. 568 00:29:23,656 --> 00:29:27,166 And he is, had around 300,000 customers over the years. 569 00:29:27,256 --> 00:29:28,306 Is this all Swedish? 570 00:29:28,396 --> 00:29:30,196 Uh, almost all Swedish. 571 00:29:30,201 --> 00:29:30,466 Yeah. 572 00:29:30,466 --> 00:29:30,676 Wow. 573 00:29:30,676 --> 00:29:34,546 So, so, and if you add the other big exchange there and the fact that 574 00:29:34,546 --> 00:29:38,386 people buy from others and accept Bitcoin and buy from, you know, 575 00:29:38,386 --> 00:29:43,986 Kraken or whatever, Coinbase, uh, the, we, we sort of estimated them. 576 00:29:44,166 --> 00:29:49,121 There might be a, um, Half a million people owning Bitcoin in the country, 577 00:29:49,241 --> 00:29:50,881 which is a 10 million population. 578 00:29:50,911 --> 00:29:55,181 Yeah, so it's it's 5 percent of the population Yeah, and then you 579 00:29:55,181 --> 00:30:00,641 realize that All of these people can pay other people in Bitcoin, and 580 00:30:00,651 --> 00:30:07,431 100 percent of the population can receive it within a minute by just 581 00:30:07,431 --> 00:30:08,961 installing something on their phone. 582 00:30:09,321 --> 00:30:12,051 Yeah, and all of a sudden, Bitcoin standard doesn't sound so crazy anymore. 583 00:30:12,071 --> 00:30:12,401 No, 584 00:30:12,451 --> 00:30:16,191 so, so, so, and the way, uh, yeah, my experience, like, traveling to 585 00:30:16,191 --> 00:30:18,821 all these conferences around the world and seeing the communities 586 00:30:18,821 --> 00:30:20,651 and meetups and stuff, it's that... 587 00:30:21,141 --> 00:30:24,841 It's sort of small everywhere, but it's literally everywhere. 588 00:30:25,281 --> 00:30:29,471 And every one horse town in every country, there's a Bitcoiner somewhere. 589 00:30:29,841 --> 00:30:33,511 And like, so I feel this like undercurrent, it's, 590 00:30:33,711 --> 00:30:35,571 it's just waiting to explode. 591 00:30:36,051 --> 00:30:36,561 Uh. 592 00:30:36,866 --> 00:30:39,326 Then again, it has felt that for quite some time. 593 00:30:39,326 --> 00:30:42,196 So like what, what's your view on that? 594 00:30:42,256 --> 00:30:43,426 Like, is is that a 595 00:30:43,486 --> 00:30:44,836 accurate representation? 596 00:30:44,866 --> 00:30:45,466 I think so, yeah. 597 00:30:45,466 --> 00:30:49,216 Do, do you think there is Bitcoiners in like North Korea or the Vatican or both? 598 00:30:50,756 --> 00:30:51,776 Oh, that's, that's 599 00:30:51,776 --> 00:30:52,406 hard to tell. 600 00:30:52,406 --> 00:30:54,446 I mean, the, uh, yeah. 601 00:30:54,566 --> 00:30:57,536 In North Korea, I, yeah, definitely. 602 00:30:57,566 --> 00:30:58,166 I would think so. 603 00:30:58,166 --> 00:30:58,556 Yeah. 604 00:30:58,616 --> 00:31:02,186 Uh, the Vatican is, uh, significantly smaller. 605 00:31:02,186 --> 00:31:02,336 Yeah. 606 00:31:02,336 --> 00:31:02,996 I, many, there's not a 607 00:31:03,001 --> 00:31:03,596 lot of people actually 608 00:31:03,596 --> 00:31:03,956 living there. 609 00:31:03,956 --> 00:31:04,046 Right. 610 00:31:04,046 --> 00:31:06,006 They're, they're quite conservative there, right here really are. 611 00:31:07,316 --> 00:31:08,076 That's the first thing I hear about it. 612 00:31:08,076 --> 00:31:08,856 So, I don't know. 613 00:31:08,926 --> 00:31:10,306 Uh, very 614 00:31:10,306 --> 00:31:13,396 tied up in the fiat system as well, I believe, so, yeah, 615 00:31:13,456 --> 00:31:14,366 their, their own version 616 00:31:14,366 --> 00:31:14,626 of it. 617 00:31:14,636 --> 00:31:18,056 I mean, I mean, in terms of portfolio, they have a lot of art, they have some 618 00:31:18,056 --> 00:31:20,036 gold, like they have real estate, like. 619 00:31:20,196 --> 00:31:25,226 I mean, don't trust verify, it doesn't sound like a, like a mantra that's, 620 00:31:25,506 --> 00:31:27,116 that's compatible with the Vatican. 621 00:31:27,116 --> 00:31:27,536 I don't know, I 622 00:31:27,536 --> 00:31:32,006 don't know, like the Catholic tradition, you know, the, the, the scholastics 623 00:31:32,006 --> 00:31:34,726 like Aquinas, they believe like through, through reason, you could, 624 00:31:34,746 --> 00:31:36,486 you can reason your way, you cannot. 625 00:31:36,651 --> 00:31:40,461 Through reason, know everything about God, but you can at least prove 626 00:31:40,461 --> 00:31:44,391 that he exists and, and, you know, discover parts of his nature so well. 627 00:31:44,391 --> 00:31:46,971 There's a, there's a, you know, I'm not convinced , it doesn't mean 628 00:31:46,971 --> 00:31:50,171 that there's still, you know, but I mean, you know, there, there's at 629 00:31:50,171 --> 00:31:52,691 least, there's at least a, a pathway. 630 00:31:52,696 --> 00:31:53,171 Yeah, yeah. 631 00:31:53,171 --> 00:31:55,151 For, for reason, for sure. 632 00:31:55,241 --> 00:31:56,741 So, but I, I forgot your question. 633 00:31:56,741 --> 00:31:57,221 I'm sorry. 634 00:31:57,491 --> 00:31:59,771 Uh, I don't even know if there was a question in there. 635 00:31:59,856 --> 00:32:00,686 It was, it was, 636 00:32:00,696 --> 00:32:04,086 uh, the, the situation, I guess, on hyperbitcoinization generally, since 637 00:32:04,126 --> 00:32:08,306 we're, we're maybe at some kind of inflection point, maybe in terms of 638 00:32:08,306 --> 00:32:13,346 the number of people who now have, have had or used Bitcoin, it doesn't 639 00:32:13,396 --> 00:32:16,976 take long to, I mean, maybe we're in a bacon number situation, if that makes 640 00:32:16,976 --> 00:32:20,616 sense, like the, the number of people who are, who know a Bitcoiner is almost 641 00:32:20,636 --> 00:32:21,876 getting to all the people, right? 642 00:32:22,166 --> 00:32:23,996 So, so, so what do you think about that 643 00:32:24,116 --> 00:32:24,606 situation? 644 00:32:24,816 --> 00:32:25,116 Yeah. 645 00:32:25,116 --> 00:32:28,896 I mean, one number that I've long looked at, like for a very long time is, 646 00:32:28,996 --> 00:32:31,916 um, is just simple internet adoption. 647 00:32:31,946 --> 00:32:37,526 Like that trend, um, you know, you, you, you also remember in 1995 being 648 00:32:37,526 --> 00:32:43,021 such an important point in time where all of a sudden it went from how do 649 00:32:43,021 --> 00:32:47,581 you do this, what is the internet, to like, okay, here's a box, you 650 00:32:47,901 --> 00:32:51,241 press the button, and we are online. 651 00:32:51,251 --> 00:32:53,241 Like, that was the Windows 95 moment. 652 00:32:53,251 --> 00:32:55,171 Like, all of a sudden it came together. 653 00:32:55,596 --> 00:32:59,746 And, uh, and, and if you look at the percentages, adoption went from 654 00:32:59,746 --> 00:33:03,896 9 percent in 1994, I believe, or maybe it was 1995, and I think early 655 00:33:03,896 --> 00:33:08,176 1995, it was 9%, and then it jumped to 16 percent in the next year. 656 00:33:08,226 --> 00:33:12,486 So to me, that is what I want to see in Bitcoin, where like, we can 657 00:33:12,486 --> 00:33:16,136 really say like, Ooh, this is a moment where we're really going mainstream. 658 00:33:16,146 --> 00:33:18,096 And I think it's coming this cycle. 659 00:33:18,236 --> 00:33:19,226 I really do believe that. 660 00:33:19,376 --> 00:33:23,366 I, it doesn't mean we have complete saturation, but it does mean that the. 661 00:33:23,746 --> 00:33:25,026 The S curve starts to 662 00:33:25,136 --> 00:33:25,706 accelerate. 663 00:33:25,716 --> 00:33:26,366 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 664 00:33:26,716 --> 00:33:33,026 I, I, uh, uh, remember 95 and 96 vividly and what I was doing and like, 665 00:33:33,686 --> 00:33:35,576 seeing the potential of the internet. 666 00:33:35,616 --> 00:33:38,516 Like, uh, guys, have you seen this thing? 667 00:33:38,526 --> 00:33:42,896 Like, and so many people like not getting it or like not seeing that. 668 00:33:43,186 --> 00:33:43,426 Yeah. 669 00:33:43,466 --> 00:33:47,186 And for, for me, that was, that experience when, when I 670 00:33:47,186 --> 00:33:48,636 discovered Bitcoin, it was like. 671 00:33:49,671 --> 00:33:50,451 I see this now. 672 00:33:50,471 --> 00:33:51,891 This is 1995. 673 00:33:52,221 --> 00:33:53,121 I should be in this. 674 00:33:53,281 --> 00:33:54,201 I should be doing this. 675 00:33:54,241 --> 00:33:55,181 I should be acting on it. 676 00:33:55,191 --> 00:33:58,311 Because at the time in 95, I decided to like, not go into 677 00:33:58,351 --> 00:33:58,371 it. 678 00:33:58,431 --> 00:34:00,811 I also felt like I knew a secret, but I didn't know. 679 00:34:00,811 --> 00:34:02,221 I mean, I was maybe a little bit younger. 680 00:34:02,221 --> 00:34:05,821 I was, I think I was like 14 or 15 when 1995 681 00:34:05,831 --> 00:34:06,331 happened. 682 00:34:06,441 --> 00:34:07,301 Yeah, it would be. 683 00:34:07,681 --> 00:34:08,001 Yeah. 684 00:34:08,141 --> 00:34:09,781 I think you were a couple of years younger than me. 685 00:34:10,021 --> 00:34:13,641 Well, and also I only had my first own, my own computer when I was 686 00:34:13,641 --> 00:34:15,886 like, 20 years old or something. 687 00:34:15,936 --> 00:34:19,566 So in a way I always felt like my friends were far ahead of me 688 00:34:19,916 --> 00:34:21,086 because they had that access. 689 00:34:21,126 --> 00:34:24,286 Like Pietro Bello told me he started programming at age 10. 690 00:34:24,826 --> 00:34:25,916 Yeah, so 691 00:34:26,426 --> 00:34:28,486 did I, but I gave it up for a long time. 692 00:34:28,536 --> 00:34:31,806 So like, I had a Commodore 64, if that counts. 693 00:34:31,866 --> 00:34:34,166 Like, I wouldn't, I wouldn't really count that. 694 00:34:34,166 --> 00:34:35,776 But, but it certainly gave me a... 695 00:34:36,646 --> 00:34:41,146 A basic understanding of what a computer is and what it can and cannot do. 696 00:34:41,586 --> 00:34:44,776 And one thing it couldn't do was, you know, keep a secret or, 697 00:34:44,796 --> 00:34:47,446 or make something uncopyable. 698 00:34:47,716 --> 00:34:47,856 Yeah. 699 00:34:47,856 --> 00:34:50,456 So that's, that's the aha moment for me with Bitcoin. 700 00:34:50,476 --> 00:34:51,476 Like, holy shit. 701 00:34:51,596 --> 00:34:51,836 Yeah. 702 00:34:52,296 --> 00:34:53,196 Something that cannot 703 00:34:53,206 --> 00:34:53,806 be copied. 704 00:34:54,106 --> 00:34:55,946 That was, that was my big... 705 00:34:56,766 --> 00:34:57,856 Point of doubt. 706 00:34:57,956 --> 00:35:00,986 When I first learned about it, I was like, wait a minute, how do you 707 00:35:00,986 --> 00:35:02,536 actually create, like, I was suspicious. 708 00:35:02,836 --> 00:35:03,766 How do you actually do this? 709 00:35:04,696 --> 00:35:08,096 So that's where talking to the engineers was like, okay, like there 710 00:35:08,096 --> 00:35:09,816 is actually, they thought about this. 711 00:35:12,516 --> 00:35:18,186 So for me, the, the denial of the Seg two X hard fork was a, a, an important 712 00:35:18,246 --> 00:35:23,346 point because that's when I realized that holy shit, this really, really works. 713 00:35:23,346 --> 00:35:31,346 That like, that's the evidence I needed for, for this to be like full blown 100%. 714 00:35:31,466 --> 00:35:32,396 This is the thing. 715 00:35:32,401 --> 00:35:33,056 Yeah, yeah. 716 00:35:33,061 --> 00:35:34,766 To fight for this is the hill to die 717 00:35:34,766 --> 00:35:34,946 on. 718 00:35:35,366 --> 00:35:40,406 Like, and then that was why I think the year 2015 was so different from 2017. 719 00:35:40,411 --> 00:35:40,736 Yeah. 720 00:35:41,006 --> 00:35:41,486 Because. 721 00:35:41,896 --> 00:35:45,396 The year 2015, there was so much doubt about like, but what if we get an attack? 722 00:35:45,746 --> 00:35:46,486 Are we going to survive? 723 00:35:46,486 --> 00:35:49,234 And then 2017, we're like, man, like, we can do this. 724 00:35:49,234 --> 00:35:49,976 Yeah, we got this. 725 00:35:50,326 --> 00:35:50,636 Yeah, 726 00:35:50,696 --> 00:35:51,016 yeah. 727 00:35:51,686 --> 00:35:52,006 So. 728 00:35:53,186 --> 00:35:55,856 So, have you seen something similar? 729 00:35:56,426 --> 00:36:02,186 Similar in anything else to something similar to the Seg two X, hard fork denial 730 00:36:03,146 --> 00:36:06,656 , like that kind of proof of resilience 731 00:36:06,776 --> 00:36:08,786 in in literally anywhere else in the world? 732 00:36:08,816 --> 00:36:09,296 Yeah. 733 00:36:09,296 --> 00:36:13,501 Uh, Well, I haven't seen it in shitcoins and I don't think you have 734 00:36:13,501 --> 00:36:15,991 either, but, but in, in any, can you... 735 00:36:16,111 --> 00:36:16,951 That's a good question. 736 00:36:17,011 --> 00:36:18,311 Uh, that's a really good question. 737 00:36:19,422 --> 00:36:24,022 I was actually just listening to a podcast about a guy who was a big, big... 738 00:36:24,827 --> 00:36:30,227 LSD dealer in the 70s and he even sold like LSD to Steve Jobs and like, you 739 00:36:30,227 --> 00:36:35,897 know, and he was talking about how they would have 50 gallon jars full 740 00:36:35,917 --> 00:36:39,837 of LSD pills, like just enormous. 741 00:36:40,182 --> 00:36:44,712 Just oceans of this stuff was made and the shelf life was about five years and 742 00:36:44,722 --> 00:36:47,102 he remembered they were talking about it and like thinking like five years 743 00:36:47,102 --> 00:36:52,362 is forever and so their plan was they thought and he said later I believe I 744 00:36:52,732 --> 00:36:57,862 was wrong but they basically thought that using this chemical they could 745 00:36:57,962 --> 00:37:00,222 make everybody become peaceful, right? 746 00:37:00,382 --> 00:37:05,807 That was the hippie idea and that's why there's this story of um, you know, They 747 00:37:05,807 --> 00:37:08,397 were going to lace, um, Nixon's coffee. 748 00:37:08,397 --> 00:37:10,467 Like they were going to slip some LSD in there. 749 00:37:10,467 --> 00:37:12,637 But so he's saying like, that was our plan. 750 00:37:12,637 --> 00:37:15,657 Like we would just kind of, you know, LSD pill the world. 751 00:37:15,657 --> 00:37:17,927 We had so much supply, we could just do this. 752 00:37:18,537 --> 00:37:22,637 And, uh, and then he said, yeah, eventually I discovered that if someone 753 00:37:22,637 --> 00:37:25,117 who's in a certain kind of mindset. 754 00:37:25,302 --> 00:37:30,252 They just won't change, like they will have this experience of near 755 00:37:30,252 --> 00:37:33,462 death or ego death and then they will just kind of still say the same. 756 00:37:33,932 --> 00:37:38,622 Um, but so anyway, I'm just thinking out loud, you know, like is there maybe, 757 00:37:39,572 --> 00:37:44,302 maybe a parallel to where like, you know, that experience that we had was so... 758 00:37:46,297 --> 00:37:49,787 important that we, we think like, Oh, now we're good. 759 00:37:49,787 --> 00:37:50,067 Right. 760 00:37:50,067 --> 00:37:53,597 Whereas like in the seventies, like we created all this LSD, like we're winning. 761 00:37:53,677 --> 00:37:54,767 Like that's what they thought. 762 00:37:55,127 --> 00:37:59,147 And so I'm not saying that there's exact parallels here, but it's like, 763 00:37:59,177 --> 00:38:02,227 it's kind of the avenue where I would, I would want to think about, 764 00:38:02,227 --> 00:38:03,907 like, you know, are we that safe? 765 00:38:03,907 --> 00:38:09,167 And I, I just keep going back to trying to double check all the math, right. 766 00:38:09,167 --> 00:38:11,607 They're really trying to like, which I'm sure we're all doing right. 767 00:38:11,607 --> 00:38:12,947 If you're in Bitcoin, you're like. 768 00:38:13,822 --> 00:38:15,342 Am I having survivor bias? 769 00:38:15,342 --> 00:38:20,222 Like, do I feel like I'm invincible because I survived 10 years, or is this 770 00:38:20,222 --> 00:38:22,882 really as sustainable as I hope it is? 771 00:38:22,942 --> 00:38:23,762 Yeah, yeah. 772 00:38:24,222 --> 00:38:29,330 And that, like, that, LSD parallel, and especially the ego death. 773 00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:30,180 Parallel. 774 00:38:30,630 --> 00:38:37,420 Like the way I I view that is, uh, like since, since all Bitcoin all 775 00:38:37,420 --> 00:38:39,400 owning Bitcoin is, is keeping a secret. 776 00:38:40,130 --> 00:38:44,510 So like the, the first thought I had was, holy shit, if you, if you memorize 777 00:38:44,510 --> 00:38:46,400 your seed phrase, you are your bitcoins. 778 00:38:46,790 --> 00:38:50,270 If, if that seed phrase is nowhere else, but then when you think deeper 779 00:38:50,270 --> 00:38:53,680 about that, like, uh, all seed, all. 780 00:38:55,160 --> 00:39:00,050 Everything that unlocking a Bitcoin is, is like someone keeping a secret. 781 00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:03,650 So even if you have the seed phrase written down, if the attacker doesn't 782 00:39:03,650 --> 00:39:06,600 know what he's looking for, there's no way he knows, like it's just 783 00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:10,900 words or it's just numbers or it's just ones and zeros and whatever. 784 00:39:11,250 --> 00:39:17,480 So, so viewed through that lens, all Bitcoins exist within people's heads. 785 00:39:18,610 --> 00:39:23,510 And also the, all the nodes and all the miners that they're not really the 786 00:39:23,510 --> 00:39:25,750 machines, they're the people who decide. 787 00:39:25,930 --> 00:39:31,840 To take the deliberate action of firing them up and running them, um, because 788 00:39:31,840 --> 00:39:34,000 they require a human being to do that. 789 00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:39,730 They, yeah, they, so it's, it's backed by human action and not energy in that sense. 790 00:39:40,140 --> 00:39:40,230 Yeah. 791 00:39:40,235 --> 00:39:45,300 And, and, and, uh, a computer, a minor, and Luke is laughing because 792 00:39:45,305 --> 00:39:51,820 he's heard this a quadrillion times, but, uh, uh, a minor, uh, all it 793 00:39:51,820 --> 00:39:54,250 does is guess a number and, uh, do. 794 00:39:54,735 --> 00:39:55,585 Mathematics. 795 00:39:56,135 --> 00:40:01,085 So a computer is just a fancy abacus that helps our, it's an extension of our minds. 796 00:40:01,175 --> 00:40:01,795 So it is us. 797 00:40:02,345 --> 00:40:03,555 It's, it's nothing but us. 798 00:40:04,505 --> 00:40:06,475 So, so the entire network is us. 799 00:40:06,525 --> 00:40:10,385 And I, I, this is how I see that it connects people on this, this 800 00:40:10,595 --> 00:40:14,215 profound level, like, because we are the same entity now. 801 00:40:15,005 --> 00:40:16,755 So, so that might be the. 802 00:40:17,090 --> 00:40:20,880 Like, ego death, LSD sort of thing. 803 00:40:21,370 --> 00:40:22,809 Like, do you think there's something to it? 804 00:40:22,810 --> 00:40:22,900 Like, 805 00:40:22,930 --> 00:40:24,630 we're all part of something bigger, right? 806 00:40:24,630 --> 00:40:27,180 I mean, we are kind of, this is a new way to connect. 807 00:40:27,700 --> 00:40:29,010 It's a way that didn't exist. 808 00:40:29,010 --> 00:40:30,360 A more profound way to... 809 00:40:30,670 --> 00:40:31,800 I think that's, I like that. 810 00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:33,320 I think that's very true. 811 00:40:33,790 --> 00:40:34,430 Um... 812 00:40:34,925 --> 00:40:36,025 I like that a lot, yeah. 813 00:40:36,445 --> 00:40:41,205 And also, when you take into consideration the lowered time preference, so we, 814 00:40:41,645 --> 00:40:46,305 you know, to a large extent, value quality over quantity and all this, 815 00:40:46,445 --> 00:40:50,705 and saving and stuff, and we're also all, we all want Bitcoin to succeed, 816 00:40:50,735 --> 00:40:51,975 so we're incentivized to help. 817 00:40:52,055 --> 00:40:53,055 other bitcoiners. 818 00:40:53,095 --> 00:40:53,325 Yeah. 819 00:40:53,475 --> 00:40:58,075 So we're just, and you, I experienced this every day in this space that 820 00:40:58,075 --> 00:40:59,255 people are just awesome to one another. 821 00:40:59,765 --> 00:41:04,305 Like there's, there's no, there's no resistance to, the 822 00:41:04,315 --> 00:41:06,185 resistance is futile in a sense. 823 00:41:06,565 --> 00:41:11,075 Yeah, there's this virtual side of, um, uh, what do you call it? 824 00:41:11,085 --> 00:41:14,215 No, virtual, um, virtuous cycle. 825 00:41:14,435 --> 00:41:14,675 Yeah. 826 00:41:14,715 --> 00:41:15,715 Yeah, exactly. 827 00:41:15,935 --> 00:41:16,135 Yeah. 828 00:41:16,235 --> 00:41:19,795 And, and at the same time, maybe that's where I'm coming from is that I think 829 00:41:19,795 --> 00:41:25,605 that in order to, maintain the, where we're, you know, we're, we're doing 830 00:41:25,665 --> 00:41:28,385 good, but in order to maintain things. 831 00:41:29,245 --> 00:41:33,635 We need that productive paranoia, I think, where you have some vigilance of 832 00:41:33,635 --> 00:41:38,465 like, Hey, you know, you know, things, things are not guaranteed to go great. 833 00:41:38,525 --> 00:41:41,815 Cause then you can get into dogmatism and you can get into 834 00:41:41,815 --> 00:41:43,585 routine and then you get sloppy. 835 00:41:43,905 --> 00:41:44,915 And then what if we start... 836 00:41:45,470 --> 00:41:49,380 Oh, maybe it's not that important to always remember your secrets or, you 837 00:41:49,380 --> 00:41:53,340 know, you know, so and then people start custodying with a centralized 838 00:41:53,380 --> 00:41:56,830 custodian and, you know, so, so the vigilance, I think, is important. 839 00:41:57,110 --> 00:41:57,460 Yeah, 840 00:41:57,490 --> 00:42:03,190 but the way I see it, it's the vigilance that enables the trust between people. 841 00:42:03,230 --> 00:42:06,490 So ironically enough, the don't trust verify attitude of the 842 00:42:06,490 --> 00:42:10,860 hardcore core of this thing is enabling people on the outer layers. 843 00:42:11,025 --> 00:42:12,615 Just to trust one another more. 844 00:42:12,775 --> 00:42:13,755 Yeah, absolutely. 845 00:42:13,815 --> 00:42:15,615 And that's so weird because it's like... 846 00:42:15,955 --> 00:42:16,195 It's 847 00:42:16,195 --> 00:42:17,015 counterintuitive. 848 00:42:17,015 --> 00:42:17,525 Yeah, it is. 849 00:42:18,025 --> 00:42:22,935 Yeah, and I think I touched on a very related topic when today in 850 00:42:22,935 --> 00:42:25,995 my presentation I talked about, um, this is one of the other kind of... 851 00:42:26,060 --> 00:42:30,340 Foundational principles of order is that continuum between, 852 00:42:30,380 --> 00:42:33,630 um, diversity and consensus. 853 00:42:33,660 --> 00:42:38,350 So diversity means you're just, not only do you disagree, but you're entrenched in 854 00:42:38,350 --> 00:42:42,910 your disagreement and you start boycotting the other or you start attacking them. 855 00:42:43,270 --> 00:42:47,880 And then consensus is actually a situation where it doesn't mean you have to agree. 856 00:42:48,320 --> 00:42:53,950 On the topics, but, um, there is a healthy debating culture, like 857 00:42:54,840 --> 00:42:56,180 the Greeks, the ancient Greeks. 858 00:42:56,210 --> 00:42:57,320 We agree to disagree. 859 00:42:57,350 --> 00:42:57,660 Yes. 860 00:42:57,690 --> 00:43:01,230 And so, because that becomes the peaceful situation. 861 00:43:01,260 --> 00:43:02,240 Stalemate is fine. 862 00:43:02,260 --> 00:43:04,700 And we, in Bitcoin, we have to explain this all the time. 863 00:43:04,700 --> 00:43:09,640 People are like, yes, but my Bitcoin improvement proposal, it's important and 864 00:43:09,640 --> 00:43:11,340 it's urgent and we need to do it now. 865 00:43:11,520 --> 00:43:14,970 And then we say, I don't know, maybe not. 866 00:43:15,070 --> 00:43:16,030 Let's just wait. 867 00:43:16,340 --> 00:43:17,760 And then they're like, but, but, but. 868 00:43:17,790 --> 00:43:18,280 And so. 869 00:43:18,680 --> 00:43:22,960 Even though there's this heated debate, there's no violence, there's no coercion. 870 00:43:23,550 --> 00:43:27,570 So it's totally, it's a very important overlooked thing in game theory. 871 00:43:27,570 --> 00:43:31,530 People think like, either you agree or you disagree, but you 872 00:43:31,530 --> 00:43:33,100 can also agree to disagree. 873 00:43:33,450 --> 00:43:36,550 And so it's such an important engine for peace, I think. 874 00:43:36,570 --> 00:43:37,760 It's argumentation ethics. 875 00:43:37,980 --> 00:43:39,080 Agreeing to disagree. 876 00:43:39,680 --> 00:43:40,840 That's the basis of that. 877 00:43:40,910 --> 00:43:41,490 Yeah, I didn't think 878 00:43:41,490 --> 00:43:43,230 of that either. 879 00:43:43,230 --> 00:43:43,730 Exactly. 880 00:43:44,330 --> 00:43:45,690 We just reinvented our invention, 881 00:43:45,900 --> 00:43:45,960 at least. 882 00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:51,580 And by the way, I don't think you ever have actually said the phrase that 883 00:43:51,600 --> 00:43:53,100 Bitcoin is backed by human action. 884 00:43:53,100 --> 00:43:54,220 I don't think you've actually 885 00:43:54,230 --> 00:43:54,290 said that. 886 00:43:54,290 --> 00:43:56,700 I think I've said that in a talk or something. 887 00:43:57,030 --> 00:43:57,270 Not 888 00:43:57,830 --> 00:43:58,680 on the pod, though. 889 00:43:58,680 --> 00:44:00,640 I don't remember you saying that while I was listening. 890 00:44:01,140 --> 00:44:03,360 That's what I was actually smiling about. 891 00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:05,500 I think that's a really good... 892 00:44:05,965 --> 00:44:07,135 Way of framing it, right? 893 00:44:07,135 --> 00:44:07,405 Yep. 894 00:44:07,405 --> 00:44:10,765 That, that you have to have the human actions that, that, that, that trigger 895 00:44:10,765 --> 00:44:12,175 all of the things that make Bitcoin. 896 00:44:12,175 --> 00:44:13,315 I think that's really important. 897 00:44:13,315 --> 00:44:13,435 And 898 00:44:13,555 --> 00:44:16,165 of course, like human action requires energy. 899 00:44:16,255 --> 00:44:18,715 Like we are energy consuming creatures. 900 00:44:18,715 --> 00:44:21,565 So, so in that sense it's backed by energy, but more. 901 00:44:22,015 --> 00:44:25,375 By the energy in our foods, right? 902 00:44:25,385 --> 00:44:28,125 Than the electricity in the miners, in that sense, 903 00:44:28,255 --> 00:44:28,495 you know? 904 00:44:28,515 --> 00:44:32,645 And it's very synergistic, like how, uh, I don't know, like, we live 905 00:44:32,645 --> 00:44:34,835 synergistically with fire, for example. 906 00:44:34,845 --> 00:44:37,285 Like, it's happened for, you know, millions of years. 907 00:44:37,455 --> 00:44:41,095 And, and, and, and there's so many things that we... 908 00:44:41,720 --> 00:44:44,810 Maybe take for granted, but they're actually not technically, physically 909 00:44:44,810 --> 00:44:48,450 in our bodies, that are in the outside world, but that are so intertwined with, 910 00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:54,030 with our society and our lives, um, you know, sources of water, we're drinking 911 00:44:54,030 --> 00:44:58,430 water, like in a way we live in synergy with water, and so I think similarly, 912 00:44:58,430 --> 00:45:00,650 yeah, we, we live in synergy with Bitcoin. 913 00:45:01,374 --> 00:45:02,574 Wonderful phrase here. 914 00:45:02,574 --> 00:45:05,634 And, uh, now I kind of want to come, come to a different point here. 915 00:45:05,694 --> 00:45:09,014 Uh, the panel that you, that you had actually just now that, uh, yeah. 916 00:45:09,014 --> 00:45:10,194 That you wanted to write after. 917 00:45:10,494 --> 00:45:15,204 Uh, it, it had the provocatively bullish, uh, when, when 100 k basically. 918 00:45:15,504 --> 00:45:18,474 Uh, but I, I wanna know, do, do you see any threats to Bitcoin? 919 00:45:18,479 --> 00:45:20,456 Like what would be the biggest threat to Bitcoin that you, 920 00:45:20,514 --> 00:45:21,624 that you can think of right now? 921 00:45:21,944 --> 00:45:28,244 Yeah, I really tried to go over that in my last report, because I think 922 00:45:28,244 --> 00:45:32,324 it is always at the end of a bear market, people have a long list of 923 00:45:32,324 --> 00:45:34,374 like, here are all the bad things that are going to happen to Bitcoin. 924 00:45:34,654 --> 00:45:38,774 And so I wanted to take it seriously and go over, you know, go over some of the 925 00:45:38,774 --> 00:45:43,314 worst scenarios and, and And, and, and because that's ultimately what happens 926 00:45:43,314 --> 00:45:49,984 is that when you go into a bull market, um, slowly the worries are debunked. 927 00:45:50,004 --> 00:45:52,924 Like you start to realize like, oh, well, we don't actually don't need to 928 00:45:52,924 --> 00:45:54,154 worry about that, but what about this? 929 00:45:54,184 --> 00:45:57,094 And then you get the wall of worry where you get the, the sell offs 930 00:45:57,104 --> 00:45:59,854 and, and eventually in the long run, it's just all a big uptrend. 931 00:45:59,864 --> 00:46:02,824 But in the moment you're like, oh no, we're going back to 932 00:46:02,824 --> 00:46:04,264 where we started or, or lower. 933 00:46:04,284 --> 00:46:08,934 Um, so, so in terms of biggest threats to Bitcoin, I think. 934 00:46:09,954 --> 00:46:14,464 I think Binance going bust is a pretty big one, um, as, as 935 00:46:14,464 --> 00:46:15,644 a, as a potential scenario. 936 00:46:15,644 --> 00:46:15,844 Wait, what? 937 00:46:15,954 --> 00:46:16,674 Long term? 938 00:46:17,354 --> 00:46:17,684 No, no, no. 939 00:46:17,684 --> 00:46:18,204 Oh, sorry. 940 00:46:18,214 --> 00:46:18,884 You mean long term? 941 00:46:18,884 --> 00:46:20,134 I thought I meant for this cycle. 942 00:46:20,134 --> 00:46:21,274 Oh, I definitely meant long term. 943 00:46:21,284 --> 00:46:22,264 Oh, I see, I see. 944 00:46:23,534 --> 00:46:27,384 Because I think long term, it's a necessity. 945 00:46:27,464 --> 00:46:28,284 Oh, yeah, 946 00:46:28,284 --> 00:46:28,584 yeah, yeah. 947 00:46:28,634 --> 00:46:29,034 Creative 948 00:46:29,034 --> 00:46:29,694 destruction, right? 949 00:46:29,694 --> 00:46:30,134 Yeah, of course. 950 00:46:30,484 --> 00:46:32,874 It's the great shitcoin purge. 951 00:46:33,174 --> 00:46:33,434 Yeah. 952 00:46:33,594 --> 00:46:34,464 No, absolutely. 953 00:46:34,474 --> 00:46:35,304 That's continuously happening. 954 00:46:35,709 --> 00:46:35,939 Yeah, 955 00:46:35,939 --> 00:46:36,419 no, no, no. 956 00:46:36,649 --> 00:46:38,429 No, we're totally on the same page. 957 00:46:38,939 --> 00:46:43,889 Long term, the biggest threats, I mean, in line with what you're saying, right, 958 00:46:43,889 --> 00:46:48,159 if Bitcoin is backed by human action, then complacency is the biggest risk, where we 959 00:46:48,349 --> 00:46:55,049 forget about the values, forget about what standards we have to hold up, for example, 960 00:46:55,399 --> 00:46:57,629 if all of us forgot how to apply rules. 961 00:46:58,549 --> 00:46:59,699 How electricity works. 962 00:46:59,729 --> 00:47:01,619 Literally, all humanity had amnesia. 963 00:47:01,619 --> 00:47:03,219 We don't, we forget how electricity 964 00:47:03,219 --> 00:47:03,459 works. 965 00:47:03,459 --> 00:47:04,179 That sort of happened 966 00:47:04,179 --> 00:47:04,799 here in Europe. 967 00:47:05,519 --> 00:47:06,959 Oh yeah, I mean, yeah, right? 968 00:47:07,029 --> 00:47:09,939 I mean, so then, then the infrastructure would start to crumble. 969 00:47:09,949 --> 00:47:11,489 Like the machines don't work on their own. 970 00:47:11,499 --> 00:47:13,089 We need to understand this. 971 00:47:13,399 --> 00:47:13,979 Yeah, yeah. 972 00:47:14,019 --> 00:47:17,019 So to me, that's, that's always been the biggest, uh, the biggest one. 973 00:47:17,379 --> 00:47:17,799 All right. 974 00:47:17,839 --> 00:47:20,959 I'm going to go, uh, down one of my little rabbit holes for a second. 975 00:47:20,959 --> 00:47:24,999 And Knut's smiling because I, I do this every once in the Vikings. 976 00:47:25,409 --> 00:47:26,789 Well, no, not this time. 977 00:47:26,789 --> 00:47:27,459 The Egyptians. 978 00:47:27,524 --> 00:47:34,054 So, so, so I, I am a big fan of the idea that, that, uh, there, there was a 979 00:47:34,064 --> 00:47:40,264 civilization, uh, long before civilization theoretically was like, um, 11, 600 years 980 00:47:40,264 --> 00:47:44,974 ago, younger Dryas, uh, impact hypothesis that a comet came down and basically 981 00:47:44,974 --> 00:47:48,714 ended something in civilization that there's Plenty of evidence for that. 982 00:47:48,774 --> 00:47:52,254 And the, the result and, and I'll, my, the, the source 983 00:47:52,254 --> 00:47:53,874 I'll give here briefly Sure. 984 00:47:53,874 --> 00:47:54,954 Is, is Graham Hancock. 985 00:47:54,984 --> 00:47:55,614 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 986 00:47:55,614 --> 00:47:59,274 The, the fingerprints of the gods, uh, magicians of the Gods American 987 00:47:59,274 --> 00:48:02,484 before Great books to, to check out on this topic, but the, the point, 988 00:48:02,754 --> 00:48:04,194 the thrust of also now on Netflix. 989 00:48:04,194 --> 00:48:05,094 Right, exactly. 990 00:48:05,574 --> 00:48:06,624 Uh, ancient apocalypse. 991 00:48:06,624 --> 00:48:06,774 Yeah. 992 00:48:06,774 --> 00:48:06,984 Yeah. 993 00:48:06,984 --> 00:48:07,434 Very good. 994 00:48:07,434 --> 00:48:08,874 So, so, so the, the. 995 00:48:08,939 --> 00:48:13,459 The point though is that, his point is that we are a society with amnesia, that 996 00:48:13,859 --> 00:48:22,049 this actually happened to us, that the, we don't know necessarily what this society 997 00:48:22,049 --> 00:48:24,074 was capable of, but we have some of it. 998 00:48:24,274 --> 00:48:27,594 evidence of it and these massive monuments such as the pyramids and 999 00:48:27,814 --> 00:48:31,834 and other, uh, other things that we're starting to find that are vastly old. 1000 00:48:32,754 --> 00:48:36,684 These are the, the bits of evidence and it's not to say aliens did stuff 1001 00:48:36,684 --> 00:48:41,199 like that, it's to say humanity was capable of, of Extraordinary things. 1002 00:48:41,299 --> 00:48:44,529 And so this is just to bring it back to the complacency point. 1003 00:48:44,529 --> 00:48:44,879 Yeah. 1004 00:48:45,099 --> 00:48:45,139 So, 1005 00:48:45,149 --> 00:48:51,169 yeah, it's so interesting, you know, and this is related to your general point I 1006 00:48:51,179 --> 00:48:54,909 just read and I don't know how credible it is, but apparently there's new, a new 1007 00:48:54,909 --> 00:49:00,589 research paper coming out arguing based on just DNA evidence of human beings that, 1008 00:49:00,589 --> 00:49:05,349 and this is a longer time frame, but that about 800, 000 years ago, the, the, the 1009 00:49:05,349 --> 00:49:08,399 human population pool shrank to about. 1010 00:49:08,444 --> 00:49:12,504 1, 200 individuals and it stayed there for like a hundred thousand years. 1011 00:49:12,534 --> 00:49:13,874 Insane, right? 1012 00:49:13,874 --> 00:49:15,264 And so we're all inbred. 1013 00:49:15,884 --> 00:49:17,004 Well, yeah, I guess. 1014 00:49:17,404 --> 00:49:17,644 Yeah. 1015 00:49:17,644 --> 00:49:19,224 Who knows how we got out of there? 1016 00:49:19,514 --> 00:49:23,114 Um, but also how much amnesia must they have had? 1017 00:49:23,114 --> 00:49:26,974 Like, imagine if humanity shrank to a thousand, this is only so 1018 00:49:26,984 --> 00:49:28,184 much information you can hold. 1019 00:49:28,184 --> 00:49:33,104 And so, yeah, I, I, I like the, you know, Younger Drives impact type, a little, I 1020 00:49:33,104 --> 00:49:35,204 mean, amateur as I am about this stuff. 1021 00:49:35,534 --> 00:49:41,384 Um, uh, to me, the most compelling is the, I like watching the Ancient Architects 1022 00:49:41,384 --> 00:49:43,234 channel on YouTube, the British guy. 1023 00:49:43,274 --> 00:49:44,144 I think he's British. 1024 00:49:44,584 --> 00:49:48,794 Um, and uh, just, you know, I forget there's also this Australian 1025 00:49:48,794 --> 00:49:51,014 researcher who often travels to Egypt. 1026 00:49:51,014 --> 00:49:51,634 Uncharted X. 1027 00:49:52,134 --> 00:49:54,014 I forget his name actually, but yeah. 1028 00:49:54,014 --> 00:49:54,194 Yeah, 1029 00:49:54,194 --> 00:49:54,674 that guy. 1030 00:49:54,934 --> 00:49:57,554 You know, I think it's really compelling when he talks about 1031 00:49:58,434 --> 00:50:00,454 how this stuff was actually made. 1032 00:50:00,454 --> 00:50:04,474 Like, you know, lifting these enormous stones inside the pyramids. 1033 00:50:04,904 --> 00:50:08,174 Uh, and then like how this, uh, what is it, alabaster? 1034 00:50:08,194 --> 00:50:09,014 How, how all that is. 1035 00:50:09,144 --> 00:50:11,244 Carved with this incredible precision. 1036 00:50:11,624 --> 00:50:15,994 Um, and then these like, uh, these simple bowls that they find, right? 1037 00:50:15,994 --> 00:50:20,434 And you try and you analyze and it's incredibly symmetrical and it has, 1038 00:50:20,844 --> 00:50:23,964 not only is it like symmetrical, but then it has perfect handles on them. 1039 00:50:24,344 --> 00:50:27,889 And this is in like a very brittle Extremely hard material. 1040 00:50:27,889 --> 00:50:29,899 Like basically stuff they cannot replicate today. 1041 00:50:29,909 --> 00:50:32,209 Like to me, that's already evidence of amnesia, right? 1042 00:50:32,209 --> 00:50:36,129 If we find something we can't replicate, well, we must've forgotten, you know? 1043 00:50:36,129 --> 00:50:40,049 And then, I mean, there was also the more like mainstream accepted stories 1044 00:50:40,049 --> 00:50:43,509 of like, Oh, the Greeks, they had the, uh, I think it was the, maybe the 1045 00:50:43,509 --> 00:50:46,559 Romans, they invented like the steam engine and then they just shelved it. 1046 00:50:46,559 --> 00:50:47,829 And, you know, so I think it happens. 1047 00:50:48,119 --> 00:50:51,229 Like, I think the big thing I actually have been wondering, 1048 00:50:51,229 --> 00:50:53,529 like that Graham Hancock theory. 1049 00:50:54,329 --> 00:50:56,999 Even regardless of if it's true or not, but it's compelling. 1050 00:50:57,309 --> 00:51:00,499 It's now hitting the mainstream like Netflix and places like that. 1051 00:51:00,979 --> 00:51:05,209 I think it's kind of breaking the idea that, that of progressivism. 1052 00:51:05,239 --> 00:51:06,329 Like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. 1053 00:51:06,519 --> 00:51:07,789 Things always get better. 1054 00:51:07,799 --> 00:51:10,719 Therefore, we just listen to the politicians because 1055 00:51:10,719 --> 00:51:12,109 they know what we need to do. 1056 00:51:12,109 --> 00:51:15,639 We're just going to follow because who's talking about a cliff? 1057 00:51:15,639 --> 00:51:16,909 We can never fall off a cliff. 1058 00:51:17,479 --> 00:51:18,909 And all of a sudden we have COVID. 1059 00:51:18,919 --> 00:51:20,269 All of a sudden we have inflation. 1060 00:51:20,609 --> 00:51:22,129 And here's this guy saying that. 1061 00:51:22,379 --> 00:51:24,889 You know, we had an amazing culture and it went to shit. 1062 00:51:24,899 --> 00:51:27,639 Like, you know, maybe we need to rethink some things. 1063 00:51:27,809 --> 00:51:27,909 I 1064 00:51:27,909 --> 00:51:32,359 think the amnesia is you don't need to rewind the clock 8, 000 years. 1065 00:51:32,429 --> 00:51:36,859 I mean, amnesia in society happens all the time. 1066 00:51:36,859 --> 00:51:38,989 Like, uh, like Austrian theory. 1067 00:51:38,999 --> 00:51:41,499 Sorry, but like Rahim, for example, like he's the last. 1068 00:51:41,634 --> 00:51:43,134 Austrian, Austrian economy. 1069 00:51:43,914 --> 00:51:45,774 Like Austria forgot about economics. 1070 00:51:45,974 --> 00:51:46,354 Yeah. 1071 00:51:46,354 --> 00:51:52,954 And not only that, but Marxist policies, policies get voted in over and over 1072 00:51:52,954 --> 00:51:59,184 again everywhere, even though they've been like debunked for years and like, 1073 00:51:59,214 --> 00:52:00,954 does anyone remember the lockdowns? 1074 00:52:01,024 --> 00:52:04,684 It seems like there's a big dose of amnesia going on there. 1075 00:52:04,694 --> 00:52:06,624 Like it seems like people for. 1076 00:52:06,969 --> 00:52:07,479 Forget. 1077 00:52:07,479 --> 00:52:08,139 So, yeah. 1078 00:52:08,169 --> 00:52:09,099 Quickly what, yeah. 1079 00:52:09,219 --> 00:52:15,639 What led up to all of these things like, and where the, where the, uh, where 1080 00:52:15,639 --> 00:52:17,589 the enemy is and what the enemy is. 1081 00:52:17,739 --> 00:52:21,789 I think it's part of why I'm like a really big believer in, in, um, 1082 00:52:22,449 --> 00:52:27,049 um, Mental health, like education and the pursuit of mental health. 1083 00:52:27,049 --> 00:52:31,019 Cause I think a really huge driver for why people forget 1084 00:52:31,359 --> 00:52:32,899 is they just get overwhelmed. 1085 00:52:32,939 --> 00:52:36,719 They just cannot control the emotions that come up when they think about 1086 00:52:36,939 --> 00:52:40,029 what it was like, or what, you know, what was impacting their 1087 00:52:40,029 --> 00:52:41,959 life or how, how things changed. 1088 00:52:41,999 --> 00:52:45,099 And, um, and, uh, and, and oftentimes people. 1089 00:52:45,524 --> 00:52:48,404 People go to crazy lengths to avoid feeling ashamed. 1090 00:52:48,534 --> 00:52:51,754 You know, why did, you know, all the policies that Russia is doing, for 1091 00:52:51,754 --> 00:52:55,344 example, a lot of it is to protect the national honor and, you know, prevent, 1092 00:52:55,664 --> 00:53:00,634 you know, if you think about the, um, the, the humiliation that happened 1093 00:53:00,644 --> 00:53:04,164 around the first world war and like, you know, the, the reparation payments 1094 00:53:04,164 --> 00:53:09,014 and like, so it's weirdly Crazy things happened because of simple emotions. 1095 00:53:09,014 --> 00:53:12,044 Anyway, so it was a, that's a different rabbit hole, but I just No, it was very 1096 00:53:12,044 --> 00:53:17,594 interesting, like the, yeah, I, and I think that's, you know about 1097 00:53:17,594 --> 00:53:21,764 this Belgian, um, psychologist, ma Mathias Desme, I think is his name. 1098 00:53:21,764 --> 00:53:22,304 Oh, I'm not familiar. 1099 00:53:22,309 --> 00:53:22,394 No. 1100 00:53:22,424 --> 00:53:25,754 Uh, yeah, he was, he had a, a, a big rise to fame during covid. 1101 00:53:25,759 --> 00:53:30,344 He talked about mice mass psychosis and mass for, he didn't call it that because 1102 00:53:30,344 --> 00:53:34,365 it's sort of a triggery word, but mass formation, I think is the word he used. 1103 00:53:35,049 --> 00:53:41,169 And how, how humans in a flock behave a certain way and when, when something 1104 00:53:41,169 --> 00:53:47,309 becomes a virtue signaling mechanism, like following, like I'm doing my part, 1105 00:53:47,649 --> 00:53:54,234 the, the Starship Troopers thing, like, uh, when you've, um, so, so during a. 1106 00:53:55,224 --> 00:54:01,824 During the lockdowns, uh, the further into those years we got, the weirder the rules 1107 00:54:01,854 --> 00:54:05,384 got, and the more often they changed. 1108 00:54:05,534 --> 00:54:10,334 So it became a virtue mechanism to know the most recent rule and follow that. 1109 00:54:10,334 --> 00:54:11,044 Yeah, exactly. 1110 00:54:11,044 --> 00:54:12,414 And I'm playing my part, you know? 1111 00:54:13,894 --> 00:54:19,354 And how societies get out of that is like, well, humor plays a big role. 1112 00:54:19,354 --> 00:54:23,134 Like, if you ridicule people for doing stuff, then all of a sudden... 1113 00:54:23,459 --> 00:54:26,649 People seem to wake up of it and it just disappears, just like 1114 00:54:26,649 --> 00:54:28,559 the East Block here in Europe. 1115 00:54:28,739 --> 00:54:34,019 It sort of disappeared overnight, almost, in comparison to like the Roman Empire. 1116 00:54:34,029 --> 00:54:38,579 So, yeah, I think there's a lot to be learned from like 1117 00:54:38,589 --> 00:54:40,269 group psychology in that sense. 1118 00:54:40,579 --> 00:54:43,439 Yeah, I remember my parents telling me that they were like 1119 00:54:43,499 --> 00:54:45,739 celebrating, I think this is 20, hmm. 1120 00:54:46,314 --> 00:54:47,024 2020 maybe? 1121 00:54:47,034 --> 00:54:49,854 I think they were celebrating, they were definitely celebrating um, 1122 00:54:49,864 --> 00:54:53,504 New Year's Eve and one of their friends had to go home before 1123 00:54:53,504 --> 00:54:55,154 midnight because there was a curfew. 1124 00:54:56,014 --> 00:54:57,054 Like insane, right? 1125 00:54:57,054 --> 00:55:00,834 They were not allowed to go on the street before midnight, even on New Year's Eve. 1126 00:55:01,489 --> 00:55:05,319 Just crazy stuff, like how does it even make sense to have an 1127 00:55:06,019 --> 00:55:08,609 outdoor curfew, it's absurd, right? 1128 00:55:08,669 --> 00:55:09,779 Total absurdity. 1129 00:55:10,129 --> 00:55:15,439 Yeah, and I guess, I want to learn more about, yeah, mob mentality, there's 1130 00:55:15,449 --> 00:55:17,619 a little book that I remember, um. 1131 00:55:18,304 --> 00:55:18,814 Reading. 1132 00:55:18,814 --> 00:55:21,114 I don't think I read the whole thing, but it was fascinating. 1133 00:55:21,114 --> 00:55:24,534 Written by Boris Sidis or Sidis. 1134 00:55:24,644 --> 00:55:28,794 He was the father of William James Sidis and, um, and William James was 1135 00:55:28,794 --> 00:55:33,564 like, uh, one of the, the, the real famous prodigy children back in the, 1136 00:55:33,914 --> 00:55:38,089 the same time of, um, um, Uh, William James, the psychologist, actually, 1137 00:55:38,099 --> 00:55:41,559 because this William James, the prodigy, was named after the friend 1138 00:55:41,559 --> 00:55:44,029 of his father, uh, the psychologist. 1139 00:55:44,059 --> 00:55:51,129 So, anyway, so Boris Tsidis was, uh, grew up in Russia, and, uh, he was, uh, sent, I 1140 00:55:51,129 --> 00:55:55,569 believe, either to prison or to the Gulag, uh, for three years because he had... 1141 00:55:56,119 --> 00:55:58,289 uh, taught some farmers how to read and write. 1142 00:55:58,489 --> 00:56:00,049 Like, that was his crime in Russia. 1143 00:56:00,479 --> 00:56:04,869 And, uh, and so he then later was a very passionate psychologist and he 1144 00:56:04,869 --> 00:56:08,569 wrote about the psychology of the mob because he had witnessed it so often. 1145 00:56:08,999 --> 00:56:12,459 Uh, and, and just really writing about how dangerous it is, you know, when 1146 00:56:12,459 --> 00:56:14,209 people get whipped into a frenzy. 1147 00:56:14,449 --> 00:56:19,279 And then you have, you write that virtual signaling or it's almost like, and you 1148 00:56:19,319 --> 00:56:24,749 see it in cults as well, where, where it's almost like You know the environment is 1149 00:56:24,749 --> 00:56:30,909 crazy, you know that somebody is going to pay, there's going to be a punishment, 1150 00:56:31,029 --> 00:56:35,969 somebody is going to be made the example, and you want to not be at the bottom, so 1151 00:56:35,969 --> 00:56:39,869 you want to be the one running away from the bear that's a little bit farther away, 1152 00:56:39,869 --> 00:56:43,899 and so you just, in North Korea, you see it, right, where there's somebody dies 1153 00:56:43,899 --> 00:56:47,969 and everybody's trying their best to cry the hardest, because the one who cries 1154 00:56:47,989 --> 00:56:51,799 the least, even if it's already crazy, they're going to get in trouble, so yeah. 1155 00:56:52,229 --> 00:56:52,559 www. 1156 00:56:53,549 --> 00:56:54,259 Insanity. 1157 00:56:54,269 --> 00:56:54,289 Yeah. 1158 00:56:55,119 --> 00:56:55,619 Absolute 1159 00:56:55,689 --> 00:56:56,379 insanity. 1160 00:56:56,429 --> 00:56:56,959 And it was 1161 00:56:56,999 --> 00:56:59,499 so, wasn't it surreal to witness it in real time? 1162 00:56:59,539 --> 00:56:59,989 Yeah. 1163 00:57:00,099 --> 00:57:00,289 It 1164 00:57:00,299 --> 00:57:00,489 was. 1165 00:57:00,489 --> 00:57:01,649 I've never in my life seen that. 1166 00:57:01,649 --> 00:57:07,139 And like, it's a reminder that, uh, it's, it's never safe with humans. 1167 00:57:07,199 --> 00:57:12,219 Like the, we, uh, complete craziness can happen at any point, like, and 1168 00:57:12,219 --> 00:57:16,319 it's, it made you, makes you more vigilant and pick up on these little... 1169 00:57:17,899 --> 00:57:22,059 And, uh, I recently read the white pill by Michael Malice. 1170 00:57:23,959 --> 00:57:27,409 It's about the, the Soviet, the history of the Soviet Union, basically. 1171 00:57:27,839 --> 00:57:32,719 And, uh, um, in that there, there are examples of, of people who committed 1172 00:57:32,719 --> 00:57:39,529 crimes in, in, In late Soviet, late Soviet era, that knew that they 1173 00:57:39,529 --> 00:57:43,419 were innocent, but that willingly went to the gulags anyway, because 1174 00:57:43,419 --> 00:57:44,839 they wanted to defend the system. 1175 00:57:44,959 --> 00:57:51,129 And like, so, so, so, so deeply entrenched into their minds that, that the system 1176 00:57:51,129 --> 00:57:52,719 was the important thing to uphold. 1177 00:57:52,899 --> 00:57:53,239 Wait, wait, so, 1178 00:57:53,819 --> 00:57:54,649 I don't 1179 00:57:54,649 --> 00:57:54,929 follow. 1180 00:57:54,929 --> 00:57:55,589 It's like... 1181 00:57:55,789 --> 00:58:00,679 Ultimate collectivism, when you, you, you know that you're innocent, but you play 1182 00:58:00,679 --> 00:58:03,419 along anyway, because the system says so. 1183 00:58:03,919 --> 00:58:04,656 It's a lot of practice. 1184 00:58:04,656 --> 00:58:05,489 It was a series of crimes, 1185 00:58:05,489 --> 00:58:08,629 they were accused, but they didn't do it, but they just went along with it. 1186 00:58:08,659 --> 00:58:08,949 Yeah. 1187 00:58:09,209 --> 00:58:12,329 And, and, and it was, but they were accused, but could they... 1188 00:58:12,914 --> 00:58:15,184 Was it even an option to defend themselves? 1189 00:58:16,164 --> 00:58:20,884 Uh, yeah, okay, this is from memory and according to the book. 1190 00:58:20,884 --> 00:58:24,164 But there were obvious cases where they could have just said, no, look 1191 00:58:24,164 --> 00:58:25,624 at this evidence, I didn't do this. 1192 00:58:25,744 --> 00:58:29,904 But it was futile to a certain extent. 1193 00:58:29,954 --> 00:58:34,874 But still, just having a chance of not getting into the gulag would be... 1194 00:58:36,254 --> 00:58:37,074 Wow, yeah, 1195 00:58:37,074 --> 00:58:41,614 really, like, it's like the frog jumping back in the pot or something. 1196 00:58:41,614 --> 00:58:42,064 Yeah, yeah. 1197 00:58:42,624 --> 00:58:45,064 Yeah, wow, hmm. 1198 00:58:45,804 --> 00:58:50,624 So what can we do to avoid this complacency, this scenario? 1199 00:58:50,634 --> 00:58:51,144 We're doing 1200 00:58:51,144 --> 00:58:51,734 it right now. 1201 00:58:52,434 --> 00:58:55,894 I, you know, I think this is really important to, you know, just keep, 1202 00:58:55,924 --> 00:59:01,784 um, remembering the past, talking about Just universal, immutable 1203 00:59:02,404 --> 00:59:05,434 principles, trying to, trying to be vigilant there too, where you don't 1204 00:59:05,434 --> 00:59:08,954 get stuck in being complacent and just assuming, you know, always go back, 1205 00:59:09,254 --> 00:59:11,374 do the math again, go over the proofs. 1206 00:59:11,704 --> 00:59:15,634 Um, yeah, I, I believe a lot in interdisciplinarity. 1207 00:59:15,674 --> 00:59:18,894 I really believe that, you know, that, that we can build bridges between, 1208 00:59:19,154 --> 00:59:23,789 and, because in a way, Science, in the broadest sense, has gotten very 1209 00:59:23,789 --> 00:59:28,569 fragmented because of how everything is subsidized and become bureaucratic. 1210 00:59:28,569 --> 00:59:32,419 And so I think there's this great project where we can bring things back 1211 00:59:32,419 --> 00:59:35,909 together in a more unified way and, um... 1212 00:59:36,679 --> 00:59:40,949 And so that more people can become part of this conversation, like there were times 1213 00:59:40,949 --> 00:59:44,709 in history where, like I mean, even the ancient Greeks, like we, now what we find 1214 00:59:44,719 --> 00:59:48,769 back is like about 1 percent of the stuff they actually produced, with in terms of 1215 00:59:48,769 --> 00:59:53,899 plays and books and all that, and even with that, this overwhelming evidence 1216 00:59:53,959 --> 00:59:59,344 that, The percentage of intellectuals, the percentage of people who really were 1217 00:59:59,524 --> 01:00:05,684 very aware and, and engaged and, and, and just brilliant was incredibly high. 1218 01:00:05,704 --> 01:00:08,394 And these people didn't have different genetics than we do. 1219 01:00:08,774 --> 01:00:12,724 So it is possible to just have much more, a much higher percentage of the 1220 01:00:12,724 --> 01:00:17,624 population get like alive and activated and be part of that great discussion. 1221 01:00:17,994 --> 01:00:21,484 And so, yeah, it's like we're, we got to keep the flame alive. 1222 01:00:21,484 --> 01:00:21,634 Right. 1223 01:00:21,634 --> 01:00:21,884 I mean, 1224 01:00:21,894 --> 01:00:22,424 absolutely. 1225 01:00:22,879 --> 01:00:23,209 Yeah. 1226 01:00:23,249 --> 01:00:24,579 So you heard it from the man. 1227 01:00:24,609 --> 01:00:28,879 If, uh, so if you want to avoid Armageddon, don't forget to 1228 01:00:28,889 --> 01:00:31,829 like, subscribe, click the bell for notification, brush your 1229 01:00:31,849 --> 01:00:33,169 teeth and all that, you know? 1230 01:00:33,289 --> 01:00:33,909 Exactly. 1231 01:00:34,019 --> 01:00:34,389 Amen. 1232 01:01:35,408 --> 01:01:35,698 Thanks. 1233 01:01:35,698 --> 01:01:38,518 I think this, I think this is a good. 1234 01:01:38,548 --> 01:01:42,498 Just thought to maybe tie this one off, but can you tell our, our viewers 1235 01:01:42,498 --> 01:01:45,418 and listeners where they can find you and what you're up to these days 1236 01:01:45,908 --> 01:01:46,398 and that sort of thing? 1237 01:01:46,398 --> 01:01:48,868 Yeah, I would say just Google my name, Thurde Meester. 1238 01:01:48,868 --> 01:01:52,578 Um, it's a bit of a weird name, but, um, just do that and 1239 01:01:52,578 --> 01:01:53,878 you'll see my Twitter account. 1240 01:01:54,068 --> 01:01:54,948 We like weird names. 1241 01:01:54,968 --> 01:01:57,158 Oh, sure, yeah, yeah, yeah. 1242 01:01:57,698 --> 01:01:59,908 Uh, my last name has four E's in it. 1243 01:01:59,948 --> 01:02:04,078 Anyway, uh, but so my, my company is adamantresearch, A 1244 01:02:04,078 --> 01:02:06,818 D A M A N T, adamantresearch. 1245 01:02:06,818 --> 01:02:07,168 com. 1246 01:02:07,168 --> 01:02:12,208 So if you go there, you'll see an archive of all my, uh, my reports 1247 01:02:12,208 --> 01:02:17,658 going back to 2012 and also a link to my latest, which is free, it's called 1248 01:02:17,658 --> 01:02:19,768 How to Position for the Bitcoin Boom. 1249 01:02:20,113 --> 01:02:24,663 20 pages, very dense, and it's literally what I sent to my own friends and family. 1250 01:02:24,683 --> 01:02:24,983 Yeah. 1251 01:02:25,463 --> 01:02:26,133 Fantastic. 1252 01:02:26,773 --> 01:02:29,013 Thank you very much for a very good conversation. 1253 01:02:29,433 --> 01:02:29,733 Yeah. 1254 01:02:29,733 --> 01:02:31,313 And good luck with everything. 1255 01:02:31,623 --> 01:02:32,093 Thank you. 1256 01:02:32,990 --> 01:02:34,760 So, what did you think of that episode with TOR? 1257 01:02:35,180 --> 01:02:36,930 I always enjoy digging into big topics. 1258 01:02:37,050 --> 01:02:40,400 The importance of avoiding complacency is my biggest takeaway from this one. 1259 01:02:40,460 --> 01:02:41,160 What was yours? 1260 01:02:41,520 --> 01:02:42,120 Let us know. 1261 01:02:42,332 --> 01:02:45,222 You can send us a boostergram on Fountain, leave us a comment on YouTube, 1262 01:02:45,232 --> 01:02:46,882 or get in touch on Noster or Twitter. 1263 01:02:47,282 --> 01:02:49,422 If you're watching on YouTube, don't forget to like the episode 1264 01:02:49,422 --> 01:02:50,562 and subscribe to the channel. 1265 01:02:50,942 --> 01:02:54,072 Our show's sponsors are Wasabi Wallet, Orange Pill App, The 1266 01:02:54,072 --> 01:02:56,542 Bitcoin Way, Zelox, and Bitcoinbook. 1267 01:02:56,542 --> 01:02:56,862 shop. 1268 01:02:57,302 --> 01:02:58,862 Check out their details in the description. 1269 01:02:59,432 --> 01:03:00,262 That's all for now. 1270 01:03:00,652 --> 01:03:03,082 See you next time, and thanks for listening.